Paris Olympics 2024

[Hafnia]

It's seems the virtue signallers and IOC have sanctioned the potential killing of women due to boxers with XY chromosomes (and therefore higher T levels, bone density, power output, aggression) being allowed to fight. 
 

So lets make sure drugs that make you lose water weight are banned but you go right ahead with your elevated testosterone......

absolute lunacy, the fact these women train so hard for years to have the right to fight fairly taken away is secondary to the fact that it's dangerous and could result in death. 

[StatesideToffee14]

Slovakian swimmer Tamara Potocka collapsed after a qualifying heat in the women's 200 meter individual medley earlier today. The Slovakian Olympic Committee later announced that Potocka is asthmatic and suffered an asthma attack after the race.  

[MikeO]

On 31/07/2024 at 17:41, Cornish Steve said:

It wasn't so long ago that only amateurs could compete in the Olympics. There's no way that the Jamaican bobsled team or Eddie the Eagle would be allowed to compete today, but they represented the true spirit of the Olympic Games.

Actually there is, was watching the women's 100m prelims, plenty of examples there...

https://olympics.com/en/news/what-are-universality-places-and-who-can-obtain-one

[Romey 1878]

4 hours ago, Hafnia said:

It's seems the virtue signallers and IOC have sanctioned the potential killing of women due to boxers with XY chromosomes (and therefore higher T levels, bone density, power output, aggression) being allowed to fight. 
 

So lets make sure drugs that make you lose water weight are banned but you go right ahead with your elevated testosterone......

absolute lunacy, the fact these women train so hard for years to have the right to fight fairly taken away is secondary to the fact that it's dangerous and could result in death. 

I don't really know what you do about something like this tbh, because she is a biological woman (all female reproductive organs etc) that has elevated levels of testosterone (of which 7 out of every 1000 women will have this). There's no evidence of DSD as I've just watched a video of someone apologising for saying there was.

When it's transgender athletes I think it's an easier thing to police but with this I think it's very difficult.

[Cornish Steve]

18 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I don't really know what you do about something like this tbh, because she is a biological woman (all female reproductive organs etc) that has elevated levels of testosterone (of which 7 out of every 1000 women will have this). There's no evidence of DSD as I've just watched a video of someone apologising for saying there was.

When it's transgender athletes I think it's an easier thing to police but with this I think it's very difficult.

A surprising percentage of the population exhibits some form of intersex condition. Until recent years, society has often viewed them as freaks and pushed them to the margins of society. Thank goodness we've stepped beyond such attitudes and now strive to offer them the same opportunities as anyone else. I agree, though, that it's tough to do so in the world of sports, but why should they be barred from competing?

[Hafnia]

22 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I don't really know what you do about something like this tbh, because she is a biological woman (all female reproductive organs etc) that has elevated levels of testosterone (of which 7 out of every 1000 women will have this). There's no evidence of DSD as I've just watched a video of someone apologising for saying there was.

When it's transgender athletes I think it's an easier thing to police but with this I think it's very difficult.

 women's testosterone should be below 2.5nmol.  Men are are classed as hypogonadic under 12 nmol. Which by US standards is too low and at those levels men would struggle to build muscle. 12-30nmol is normal range. 
 

if men have test levels above 30nmol they would fail a test. Castor Semanya needed to take drugs to keeep her levels below 2.5nmol for a year in order to compete which she refused to do. 

The ranges show just why men and women are so different in athletic and aggressive output.  

[Hafnia]

2 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

A surprising percentage of the population exhibits some form of intersex condition. Until recent years, society has often viewed them as freaks and pushed them to the margins of society. Thank goodness we've stepped beyond such attitudes and now strive to offer them the same opportunities as anyone else. I agree, though, that it's tough to do so in the world of sports, but why should they be barred from competing?

I'll tell you why cos a female with XY chromosomes will have approx 170% the punching power of a female. 
 

its not as simple as saying "oh well they won the race"....... this is combat sports - it's life or death 

people's lives and more important than virtue signalling. 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

A surprising percentage of the population exhibits some form of intersex condition. Until recent years, society has often viewed them as freaks and pushed them to the margins of society. Thank goodness we've stepped beyond such attitudes and now strive to offer them the same opportunities as anyone else. I agree, though, that it's tough to do so in the world of sports, but why should they be barred from competing?

Why should they be shoehorned into an existing category? Why can they not have their own 2 categories representing both transgender women and men with equal (or as close to as reality allows) respect, coverage and rewards?

 

[Romey 1878]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

Why should they be shoehorned into an existing category? Why can they not have their own 2 categories representing both transgender women and men with equal (or as close to as reality allows) respect, coverage and rewards?

 

She isn't transgender though. I absolutely agree that transgender should have their own category/categories, but this Algerian woman is just that, a woman. So how or why do you stop her competing?

I don't envy the authorities on this one at all because no matter what they do they'll get shit.

[Matt]

8 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

She isn't transgender though. I absolutely agree that transgender should have their own category/categories, but this Algerian woman is just that, a woman. So how or why do you stop her competing?

I don't envy the authorities on this one at all because no matter what they do they'll get shit.

Oh I wasn't talking about that part, just the bit in bold. 

The noise around that is just daft. The whole point of the Olympics was so the biggest and strongest could compete against each other and more often than not they're physical exceptions. Else everyone would be competing. They used to be called freaks of nature though that's probably not acceptable anymore. The point being they were an extreme exception to the general rule. Occasionally there's a proper grock who dominates for a bit, but then the competition opens up again. Kehlif is just that grock of a generation, tough luck ladies. 

[MikeO]

1 minute ago, Matt said:

Oh I wasn't talking about that part, just the bit in bold. 

The noise around that is just daft. The whole point of the Olympics was so the biggest and strongest could compete against each other and more than not they're physical exceptions. Else everyone would be competing. Occasionally there's a proper grock who dominates for a bit, but then the competition opens up again. Kehlif is just that grock of a generation, tough luck ladies. 

Except she's lost 20% of her international fights (W42 L9), so hardly invincible.

She's a woman, end of story.

Shameful disinformation spread about her by people who should know better....Trump, Truss, Rowling, Musk etc...the usual suspects.

[Matt]

56 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Except she's lost 20% of her international fights (W42 L9), so hardly invincible.

She's a woman, end of story.

Shameful disinformation spread about her by people who should know better....Trump, Truss, Rowling, Musk etc...the usual suspects.

That's still quite a dominating record. I was more annoyed the Italian chick just quit rather than at least try. I know there was a clear physical disadvantage but you dont just give up. 

[MikeO]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/imane-khelif-olympics-boxer-trans-debate-gender-carini-b2590229.html

The funny thing is that the people up in arms over this are the self same "anti trans" brigade, who scream long and hard about there being "only two genders".

So, given that she has a vagina and a uterus (and was born that way), which category would they put her in? Has to be one or the other.

[Cornish Steve]

6 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 women's testosterone should be below 2.5nmol.  Men are are classed as hypogonadic under 12 nmol. Which by US standards is too low and at those levels men would struggle to build muscle. 12-30nmol is normal range. 
 

if men have test levels above 30nmol they would fail a test. Castor Semanya needed to take drugs to keeep her levels below 2.5nmol for a year in order to compete which she refused to do. 

The ranges show just why men and women are so different in athletic and aggressive output.  

OK, so let's refuse to allow talented basketball players to play on a team until they train for a year to reduce their height from seven feet to six feet. After all, their unnatural height is an unfair advantage over those at "normal" height. Don't you see how ridiculous this sounds? We're made the way we are, and it's no business of outsiders to tell us we're too tall, too short, too male, too female, too left-handed instead of right, too green-eyed instead of blue, etc. 

Sinistral = someone who is left-handed. Derivation? Same root as sinister. Why? Because centuries ago we were foolish enough to believe they were devilish and ostracised or even executed them for not being "normal". I had thought we'd moved beyond such nonsense, but now the same ignorance is being applied to the Intersex, among others.

[Romey 1878]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Cornish Steve said:

OK, so let's refuse to allow talented basketball players to play on a team until they train for a year to reduce their height from seven feet to six feet. After all, their unnatural height is an unfair advantage over those at "normal" height. Don't you see how ridiculous this sounds? We're made the way we are, and it's no business of outsiders to tell us we're too tall, too short, too male, too female, too left-handed instead of right, too green-eyed instead of blue, etc. 

Sinistral = someone who is left-handed. Derivation? Same root as sinister. Why? Because centuries ago we were foolish enough to believe they were devilish and ostracised or even executed them for not being "normal". I had thought we'd moved beyond such nonsense, but now the same ignorance is being applied to the Intersex, among others.

Missing the point spectacularly here.....we don't see men face women in basketball - but if we did at least it doesn't involve potential death or brain damage. 

if a female had exogenous testosterone levels of a male - they would get banned and branded a cheat. Being endogenous doesn't make it ok.

now let's get on to the crux of the issue - the higher level of female testosterone in 2.5 nmol - males will range between 15-25nmol so you are looking at a 500% increase to go from high female range to mid male range. 500%...... 

so Cornish - are you proposing allowing females with XY chromosomes and male levels of testosterone, bone density and muscularity to punch females in the face with an average punch increase of 170%? 

I mean.... you know Sylvester Stallone is jacked at 70, do you know why? He takes testosterone mate. 
 

whatever you want to call it - it's not a level playing field and it's dangerous. 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o

So she hasn't apologised for her views - just how she handled it. 

[Romey 1878]

12 hours ago, Hafnia said:

So she hasn't apologised for her views - just how she handled it. 

She also says she respects the decision to let the Algerian woman fight.

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

She also says she respects the decision to let the Algerian woman fight.

"If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision"

that doesn't mean she agrees with the decision.

be interesting to understand the dialogue that has gone on between the Italian boxer and her sponsors and her own country.

Maybe she thought after Lynsey Sharp getting death threats after voicing her opinions on semanya has made her make 2 decisions in one week to preserve her life? 

women do not have XY chromosomes - it really isn't that hard to understand.  If we are getting to the stage where XY chromosome athletes can compete with women then we are absolutely doomed. It's not an easy thing to write as it feels harsh but it is what it is. Got to be realistic. 

If they have XY chromosomes and want to identify as female - absolutely fine! But you can't compete with females when you have endogenous test levels that put you at male levels. Semanya had undescended testicles and also had a vagina - testicles produce testosterone and she had circulating levels of a male. 
 

ars you saying that a below standard male boxer could identify as a female and take part in olympics?  Not being facetious but that's where this is at now. 
 

the two boxers in question failed gender verification tests but the ioc allowed them because of they were born as women raised as women and have women on passports...... so did semanya but fortunately her unfair physical advantages didn't mean punching some woman in the head. 

[Hafnia]

People need to do a bit of reading on the IOC and their double standards, East Germany doped female athletes for years without consent - the IOC knew it but did nothing. 

many of these athletes died prematurely. Many of them now fighting to get their records struck off. 

The IOC knew - the whole world knew, state sponsored doping. An absolute travesty for the clean athletes who trained hard for years only to be cheated by athletes who were forced to take daft levels of "blue pills". 

 

 

[Romey 1878]

I'll say it again, there is no evidence to say she has XY chromosomes or that she has experienced DSD, but you seem to be presenting it as fact.

[Hafnia]

18 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

I'll say it again, there is no evidence to say she has XY chromosomes or that she has experienced DSD, but you seem to be presenting it as fact.

Oh look.....

The IOC scrambling and correcting their statement that she didn't have DSD after Istvan Kovacs from the WBO has come out and said they had told the IOC a while ago that the Algerian was technically classed as male.  They removed the statement that she didn't have DSD in their correction. 

Absolutely farce.  Anyone remember Panama Lewis and Luis resto more or less causing the blinding of Billy Collins and arguably his death?

this isn't tiddlywinks they are playing. 

[Romey 1878]

It still doesn't say she does, but it is looking a bit more murky for sure.

The complication/confusion comes because of the IBA not releasing the reasons why they failed their test and it's very odd that they allowed these women to fight a few fights first and then disqualified them in that competition.

[Hafnia]

25 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

It still doesn't say she does, but it is looking a bit more murky for sure.

The complication/confusion comes because of the IBA not releasing the reasons why they failed their test and it's very odd that they allowed these women to fight a few fights first and then disqualified them in that competition.

The WBO have also confirmed what the IBA said... I believe they may want to protect the athlete from the unnecessary specifics which will now be necessary because the IOC messed up and didn't heed what the WBO told them. 

[Cornish Steve]

3 hours ago, Hafnia said:

 

women do not have XY chromosomes - it really isn't that hard to understand.

You need to read up a bit on intersex conditions because some women DO have XY chromosomes. "It really isn't that hard to understand."

https://www.medicaldaily.com/hayley-haynes-woman-born-without-womb-gives-birth-twin-girls-hormone-therapy-320482

I can quote you many other examples if you like since I researched this topic years ago for my book. For example, do a Google search for "guevedoces". It would help a lot in discussions like this if participants on all sides were willing to learn.

[Romey 1878]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

The WBO have also confirmed what the IBA said... I believe they may want to protect the athlete from the unnecessary specifics which will now be necessary because the IOC messed up and didn't heed what the WBO told them. 

The IBA only said they failed the test, they gave no reason for why they failed. They also allowed them to fight in the earlier rounds but then all of a sudden disqualified them in a later round. So what changed? It suggests something else is at play, perhaps politics.

Was there a problem when she fought in the last Olympics and lost to the eventual winner?

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

You need to read up a bit on intersex conditions because some women DO have XY chromosomes. "It really isn't that hard to understand."

https://www.medicaldaily.com/hayley-haynes-woman-born-without-womb-gives-birth-twin-girls-hormone-therapy-320482

I can quote you many other examples if you like since I researched this topic years ago for my book. For example, do a Google search for "guevedoces". It would help a lot in discussions like this if participants on all sides were willing to learn.

I don't need to read anything Steve. My background is biology/business and I was accepted to Huddersfield uni to do genetics. Doesn't mean I know everything but I would back myself on the understanding of this topic over most.  so maybe I'll start with you?

"Hayley Haynes, then 19, was told by specialists she had been born with XY chromosomes, meaning she was genetically male with no reproductive organs."  - so she is genetically a male.  It goes on to say she has androgen insensitivity syndrome which means despite having male hormones they won't have any influence on her body - the testosterone won't increase muscle mass or give her any male traits.  
 

Steve - a man who decides to be a woman is a woman. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. She's genetically male - you are xx or XY and she is XY but she retains the right to be called a woman because that's her chosen identity. 
 

a miraculous and wonderful story - but what point are you trying to make here?

Semanya was given the option to suppress test levels for a year before competing and refused. She wanted to retain the unfair hormone advantage.

You are talking about allowing women to get punched by opponents with male level hormones. FFS 

 

 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

The IBA only said they failed the test, they gave no reason for why they failed. They also allowed them to fight in the earlier rounds but then all of a sudden disqualified them in a later round. So what changed? It suggests something else is at play, perhaps politics.

Was there a problem when she fought in the last Olympics and lost to the eventual winner?

They can't say why as it's medical info and the tests were after the olympics. 

the tests resulted in the other boxers bronze medal being taken.  She didn't appeal. 

it's very very sad but there has to be fairness and boxers protected. 

[Cornish Steve]

22 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

I don't need to read anything Steve. My background is biology/business and I was accepted to Huddersfield uni to do genetics. Doesn't mean I know everything but I would back myself on the understanding of this topic over most.  so maybe I'll start with you?

"Hayley Haynes, then 19, was told by specialists she had been born with XY chromosomes, meaning she was genetically male with no reproductive organs."  - so she is genetically a male.  It goes on to say she has androgen insensitivity syndrome which means despite having male hormones they won't have any influence on her body - the testosterone won't increase muscle mass or give her any male traits.  
 

Steve - a man who decides to be a woman is a woman. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. She's genetically male - you are xx or XY and she is XY but she retains the right to be called a woman because that's her chosen identity. 
 

a miraculous and wonderful story - but what point are you trying to make here?

Semanya was given the option to suppress test levels for a year before competing and refused. She wanted to retain the unfair hormone advantage.

You are talking about allowing women to get punched by opponents with male level hormones. FFS 

 

 

You quoted from the article, but did you take time to actually digest it and understand? She was registered a female at birth with no doubts whatsoever, she was raised as a girl because, externally, she looked physically as every girl looks; there was no hint of any male characteristics. She will have had regular doctor's visits through the years, and no-one knew she was XY. At 19, when she still had not experienced a period, her doctors decided it was time for more detailed tests, and that's when everyone was shocked at the genetic results.

She's not "a man who decides to be a woman" for goodness sake! Everyone who knew her at 18 would have laughed at the very idea. She's a woman. She's always been a woman. That's never been in dispute. She's even given birth to twins, fathered by her husband, because she has a womb. It's the height of insult to call her a man. This is why concluding that someone with XY chromosomes is always a man is way too simplistic and very hurtful to those exhibiting an intersex condition.

What would everyone have concluded several decades ago when we were unaware of genes and chromosomes? There would have been no argument about Hayley or about the Olympic boxer: she's a woman! In fact, I feel certain that some of the great female athletes from pre-1960s Olympics exhibited the same kind of intersex conditions.

[Hafnia]

13 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

Did you read Hayley's story? She was a female at birth, she was raised as a girl because, externally, she looked physically as every girl looks. There was no hint that she was XY. She will have had regular doctor's visits through the years, and no-one knew she was XY. At 19, still not having had a period, the medical community decided it was time for more detailed tests, and that's when everyone was shocked at the genetic results.

She's not "a man who decides to be a woman" for goodness sake! Everyone who knew her at 18 would have laughed at the very idea. She's a woman. She's always been a woman. It would have been the height of insult to call her a man. This is why concluding that someone with XY chromosomes is always a man is way too simplistic and very hurtful to those exhibiting an intersex condition.

I read Hayley's story Steve yes. Not calling her a man in the same way I wouldn't call a transitioned person their former gender. So stop looking for offence - not biting.  If she never had androgen insensitivity she would be masculine. 

Chromosomes define your biological gender - end of story.  A Y chromosome indicates male. Go take your argument up with professors