Trump/US Politics

[MikeO]

1 hour ago, Sibdane said:

It makes me sick to watch him smirk and point at certain parts of the videos where he thinks he's making a good point. 

If you looked up "unpresidential" in a dictionary definition No1 should be Donald Trump.

[Sibdane]

28 minutes ago, MikeO said:

If you looked up "unpresidential" in a dictionary definition No1 should be Donald Trump.

What drives me even more crazy is that his supporters don't see how much of a narcissist he is. He's so full of himself and his supporters eat it up. 

[markjazzbassist]

sadly i don't know if biden has what it takes to win.

[Sibdane]

1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said:

sadly i don't know if biden has what it takes to win.

I don't think he does either. I'm still going to vote for him, but he's not a very exciting pick. The clout he has is pretty much based on the fact he was Obama's VP. 

I'm curious who his running mate will be. 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Sibdane said:

I don't think he does either. I'm still going to vote for him, but he's not a very exciting pick. The clout he has is pretty much based on the fact he was Obama's VP. 

I'm curious who his running mate will be. 

your selling him short there.  he has been a career politician and is one of the longest (if not the longest) serving members that is active.  that is a massive advantage because he knows how stuff works and how to navigate the political environment.  Trump has no clue, which is evident when he says he has the power to reopen states for COVID (he does not).  

 

other than those 2 points, yeah not much there charisma wise, old white guy, etc.  but i too will vote for him.  Maybe he makes an exciting pick for VP that gets us all energized.

[Chach]

12 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

your selling him short there.  he has been a career politician and is one of the longest (if not the longest) serving members that is active.  that is a massive advantage because he knows how stuff works and how to navigate the political environment.  Trump has no clue, which is evident when he says he has the power to reopen states for COVID (he does not).  

 

other than those 2 points, yeah not much there charisma wise, old white guy, etc.  but i too will vote for him.  Maybe he makes an exciting pick for VP that gets us all energized.

Caitlyn Flanagan from The Atlantic made the same point, he knows how to whip the vote and get things done but no leadership qualities.

I am going to make the prediction that Biden will win handily, Trump is going to turn out the Democratic base for them and with the economy in the toilet due to restrictions from CV19 people will vote for stability.

It is going to be ugly though, I may have to log off Twitter for the duration.

[Sibdane]

6 hours ago, Chach said:

Caitlyn Flanagan from The Atlantic made the same point, he knows how to whip the vote and get things done but no leadership qualities.

I am going to make the prediction that Biden will win handily, Trump is going to turn out the Democratic base for them and with the economy in the toilet due to restrictions from CV19 people will vote for stability.

It is going to be ugly though, I may have to log off Twitter for the duration.

I would love for Biden to win handily just to see who Trump's ego would blame this time. 

[MikeO]

Funny how history repeats itself (apart from the fact that Carter and Reagan were nowhere as appalling as Trump)...

 

 

[Sibdane]

35 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Funny how history repeats itself (apart from the fact that Carter and Reagan were nowhere as appalling as Trump)...

 

 

Weird seeing Rowan Atkinson as anything else besides Mr. Bean.

[Matt]

34 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Weird seeing Rowan Atkinson as anything else besides Mr. Bean.

He’ll forever be Blackadder to me 

[MikeO]

50 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Weird seeing Rowan Atkinson as anything else besides Mr. Bean.

 

15 minutes ago, Matt said:

He’ll forever be Blackadder to me 

Really hate the Mr Bean character, that aside he's a very funny man. NTNON was not far behind Python in its influence and mould breaking format, was a highlight of the week back in the day.

[Sibdane]

It's a really disappointing time to be an American. For the most part of my life I've viewed us as innovators and quick to solve problems. Where did it all go wrong? How did we get to where we are now? This is all rhetorical of course, but I'm just really shocked at what we've become in the last couple of decades. 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Sibdane said:

It's a really disappointing time to be an American. For the most part of my life I've viewed us as innovators and quick to solve problems. Where did it all go wrong? How did we get to where we are now? This is all rhetorical of course, but I'm just really shocked at what we've become in the last couple of decades. 

if you have ever watched the show "the newsroom" by aaron sorkin (wonderful show btw), it reminds me of the first scene.  the anchor (jeff bridges) is taking questions from the audience, the person says "can you say why america is the greatest country in the world?" he responds "we're not the greatest country in the world.........We’re 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, number 4 in labor force and number 4 in exports. We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real and defense spending, where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies."

 

that about sums it up for me

[holystove]

8 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

if you have ever watched the show "the newsroom" by aaron sorkin (wonderful show btw), it reminds me of the first scene.  the anchor (jeff bridges) is taking questions from the audience, the person says "can you say why america is the greatest country in the world?" he responds "we're not the greatest country in the world.........We’re 7th in literacy, 27th in math, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, 3rd in median household income, number 4 in labor force and number 4 in exports. We lead the world in only three categories: number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real and defense spending, where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined, 25 of whom are allies."

 

that about sums it up for me

Another show that illustrates what is currently wrong with the US is 'The Loudest Voice' about Roger Ailes, and Fox News.  Just finished watching it yesterday.  Highly recommended.

Regarding corona there's a couple of interesting papers out already that show that Trump voters are less likely to believe there is a pandemic and don't adhere to social distancing.. http://web.stanford.edu/~gentzkow/research/social_distancing.pdf and https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3562796 

(Coincidentally, early UK data shows the same is true for the brexit-voters https://github.com/benwansell/COVID-activity/ )

[Matt]

43 minutes ago, holystove said:

Another show that illustrates what is currently wrong with the US is 'The Loudest Voice' about Roger Ailes, and Fox News.  Just finished watching it yesterday.  Highly recommended.

Regarding corona there's a couple of interesting papers out already that show that Trump voters are less likely to believe there is a pandemic and don't adhere to social distancing.. http://web.stanford.edu/~gentzkow/research/social_distancing.pdf and https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3562796 

(Coincidentally, early UK data shows the same is true for the brexit-voters https://github.com/benwansell/COVID-activity/ )

My republican in-laws and friends have been quite scared and are following the rules really strictly. Half of them are in the country so it’s not as hard to self isolate (although the area around Cynthiana KY is still having a rough time because of idiots crossing state borders despite their governor being really sensible with his actions). It’s my grandparents in law that I’m worried about, even if they are hardened Trump and Fox News advocates, they’re really good people. They all live in Sun City and Sun City West, which are retirement communities and I’m dreading the day I hear about an outbreak there (one is 85 living alone, one has COPD and 77, and the other is 75 living with the 77yr old).

 I know you didn’t make a blanket statement but thought I’d throw in what I’ve heard from them first hand. 

[Chach]

17 hours ago, holystove said:

Another show that illustrates what is currently wrong with the US is 'The Loudest Voice' about Roger Ailes, and Fox News.  Just finished watching it yesterday.  Highly recommended.

Can you expand on what you mean by this this. I see Fox News and CNN as something akin to WWE as in the people watching it don't really care if it's factual. It's a product made with the intention of confirming the innate biases of the consumer. I notice this in myself all the time albeit much less than I used to now I am aware of it.

First you have a feeling about what you want to believe based on your personal preference and then you seek out the information that confirms it, are you saying that you think politically biased media are driving the narrative or just ramping up the polarisation? 

[holystove]

On 18/04/2020 at 05:17, Chach said:

Can you expand on what you mean by this this. I see Fox News and CNN as something akin to WWE as in the people watching it don't really care if it's factual. It's a product made with the intention of confirming the innate biases of the consumer. I notice this in myself all the time albeit much less than I used to now I am aware of it.

First you have a feeling about what you want to believe based on your personal preference and then you seek out the information that confirms it, are you saying that you think politically biased media are driving the narrative or just ramping up the polarisation? 

The show makes clear that the intention of Fox News was never to bring you the news.  It was to push a narrative, made to look like news.  Ailes didn't care whether or not something was true, it got aired as long as it hurt the democrats (liberals) or anyone he deemed un-American. 

Fox News was, and is, not exploiting a divide that is already there in the American public, I think Fox is (partly) responsible for creating it.   Fox News triggers people who are scared and worried, and gives them an easy explanation and enemy.  Trump couldn't have happened without 25 years of Fox News preceding him.

Compare it to Germany.  Right now the AfD is a small party which tops out at 10-15%.  Now imagine they had their own propaganda channel, called it news, and made it the only source of information for a great number of Germans...

[Chach]

2 hours ago, holystove said:

The show makes clear that the intention of Fox News was never to bring you the news.  It was to push a narrative, made to look like news.  Ailes didn't care whether or not something was true, it got aired as long as it hurt the democrats (liberals) or anyone he deemed un-American. 

Fox News was, and is, not exploiting a divide that is already there in the American public, I think Fox is (partly) responsible for creating it.   Fox News triggers people who are scared and worried, and gives them an easy explanation and enemy.  Trump couldn't have happened without 25 years of Fox News preceding him.

Compare it to Germany.  Right now the AfD is a small party which tops out at 10-15%.  Now imagine they had their own propaganda channel, called it news, and made it the only source of information for a great number of Germans...

Not saying I agree with anything Fox news has done but what you've spun their is the narrative that liberals (including me) having been spinning for years because it makes us feel better. 

I just don't think it stands up to any real analysis, you look at the numbers watching something like Hannity relative to the voting public and its a drop in the ocean, then add up all the other pro left news channels and there's more people watching that than Fox News.

This quote from the show attributed (incorrectly) to Ailes sums it up "people don't want to be informed, they want to feel informed" people want to feed their biases including us.

Let's be honest, Fox News and Trump are a symptom of the same thing, 40 years of neo-liberal overreach.

On the flipside, how is this approach working out for us?

 

[Chach]

How is the irony of 5 people liking a post that in response to a post saying people seek out information to confirm their own political biases, states that a TV show made by liberals, based on a book by a liberal, for liberals about a prominent conservative with the express intention of enraging them is an accurate explanation of how politics got the way they are.

I mean, oh my fucking days. Where is the attempt at honesty and self awareness? IT'S A FUCKING TV SHOW.

 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Chach said:

mean, oh my fucking days. Where is the attempt at honesty and self awareness? IT'S A FUCKING TV SHOW.

I agree people look for confirmation of there beliefs in areas that only promote what they believe in, I try not to do that because you are going to get an unbalanced argument, but when right wing papers like the Telegraph print a story condemning Johnstone and his government then I stand up and listen, I have more faith in that being true from them than if it had come from say the Mirror. 
There are a lot of victims in politics and most are victims of their own choices, they get led down a route that is not always right for them, but is part of the policies there chosen party implement, and without consideration they follow and then become the victims of policies that don’t work for them. 
And that’s why I agree with your comment of honesty and self awareness, if maybe not for the same reasons. 

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Chach said:

How is the irony of 5 people liking a post that in response to a post saying people seek out information to confirm their own political biases, states that a TV show made by liberals, based on a book by a liberal, for liberals about a prominent conservative with the express intention of enraging them is an accurate explanation of how politics got the way they are.

I mean, oh my fucking days. Where is the attempt at honesty and self awareness? IT'S A FUCKING TV SHOW.

 

I was agreeing with the Fox stuff, which is entirely accurate. It is much more than a TV show. 

[Chach]

16 hours ago, Matt said:

I was agreeing with the Fox stuff, which is entirely accurate. It is much more than a TV show. 

Please explain how it is "entirely accurate, it is much more than a TV show".

 

[holystove]

On 21/04/2020 at 12:27, Chach said:

How is the irony of 5 people liking a post that in response to a post saying people seek out information to confirm their own political biases, states that a TV show made by liberals, based on a book by a liberal, for liberals about a prominent conservative with the express intention of enraging them is an accurate explanation of how politics got the way they are.

I mean, oh my fucking days. Where is the attempt at honesty and self awareness? IT'S A FUCKING TV SHOW.

 

On 20/04/2020 at 08:25, holystove said:

The show makes clear that the intention of Fox News was never to bring you the news.  It was to push a narrative, made to look like news.  Ailes didn't care whether or not something was true, it got aired as long as it hurt the democrats (liberals) or anyone he deemed un-American. 

<== about the TV show

On 20/04/2020 at 08:25, holystove said:

Fox News was, and is, not exploiting a divide that is already there in the American public, I think Fox is (partly) responsible for creating it.   Fox News triggers people who are scared and worried, and gives them an easy explanation and enemy.  Trump couldn't have happened without 25 years of Fox News preceding him.

<== what I think Fox News has done; no longer about the TV show.  And what (I assume) Matt tried to make clear in his response.

On 20/04/2020 at 08:25, holystove said:

Compare it to Germany.  Right now the AfD is a small party which tops out at 10-15%.  Now imagine they had their own propaganda channel, called it news, and made it the only source of information for a great number of Germans...

<== what a Fox-like channel could do in any western democracy

[Sibdane]

I think one of the biggest problems with Fox News' influence is that it doesn't have any true competitors on it's side of the line (right-wing based); it's the main source of information for Conservatives here, so it's a lot easier to push an agenda/narrative.

[Chach]

16 hours ago, holystove said:

 

<== about the TV show

<== what I think Fox News has done; no longer about the TV show.  And what (I assume) Matt tried to make clear in his response.

<== what a Fox-like channel could do in any western democracy

Your whole thing is to claim a causal link between news and in particular Fox News and political polarisation/divide and I am saying it does not stand up to any analysis, this is an opinion I come to reluctantly as my opinion used to be the same as yours, before it was changed by evidence presented through research by mostly left wing/liberal types.

Your claim that the show is anyway hugely representative of the truth is very flimsy on its own, I watched it I was entertained but it was never intended to be objective.

Case in point, the first 15 years of Sean Hannity's involvement was Hannity and Colmes, Colmes bringing the liberal viewpoint. Not mentioned/shown or in anyway consistent with the story narrative (I'm sure the book is a lot more honest that the show granted, and I think I will read it)

I've posted this before have a listen, Ezra Klein is as inner city tree hugging left winger type as you can get. Founder of Vox which is also about as left wing as you can get. 

At 1:08 (if you don't want to listen to the whole thing) they talk about how the media got to where it's at now in response to Sean Carroll's idea that the Media is maybe the causal reason. You can literally hear him let go of the idea in real time as the facts are presented.

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2020/01/27/81-ezra-klein-on-polarization-politics-and-identity/

[Chach]

11 hours ago, Sibdane said:

I think one of the biggest problems with Fox News' influence is that it doesn't have any true competitors on it's side of the line (right-wing based); it's the main source of information for Conservatives here, so it's a lot easier to push an agenda/narrative.

If you watched Fox News do you think you would be swayed by their agenda?

If not, why do you think that is?

[holystove]

3 hours ago, Chach said:

I've posted this before have a listen, Ezra Klein is as inner city tree hugging left winger type as you can get. Founder of Vox which is also about as left wing as you can get. 

At 1:08 (if you don't want to listen to the whole thing) they talk about how the media got to where it's at now in response to Sean Carroll's idea that the Media is maybe the causal reason. You can literally hear him let go of the idea in real time as the facts are presented.

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2020/01/27/81-ezra-klein-on-polarization-politics-and-identity/

Doesn't he make the point that even though the American audience polarized first, news media such as Fox News, but also the NYT on the left, tried to keep up by feeding into that and creating a 'feedback loop' for polarisation?  So if he doesn't think Fox News started the didvide, they are certainly reinforcing it?

Why is America more polarized than say Scandinavia, or the Netherlands, Belgium etc?  If every society is, or could be, equally polarized, an important factor in keeping that under control is not having 'extreme' news organisations reinforcing the divide, by for example not having a strong (neutral) public broadcaster (as most EU countries do) but having Fox News as your main source of information.

Interesting podcast.  WIll listen to more episodes.

[Chach]

50 minutes ago, holystove said:

Doesn't he make the point that even though the American audience polarized first, news media such as Fox News, but also the NYT on the left, tried to keep up by feeding into that and creating a 'feedback loop' for polarisation?  So if he doesn't think Fox News started the didvide, they are certainly reinforcing it?

Why is America more polarized than say Scandinavia, or the Netherlands, Belgium etc?  If every society is, or could be, equally polarized, an important factor in keeping that under control is not having 'extreme' news organisations reinforcing the divide, by for example not having a strong (neutral) public broadcaster (as most EU countries do) but having Fox News as your main source of information.

Interesting podcast.  WIll listen to more episodes.

The point he makes I think is they keep levelling up on the partisanship to compete for the portion of the viewership that are actually tuning in now they don;t have to, I said in my original post that most people on both sides don't even care if it's true now it's all about feeding their biases.

I also think it's much less influential than we give it credit for, we like politics and so does the media so we internally amplify it. Most people just aren't that engaged/have much information.

Like I said originally, I think it's overreach in the liberalising of economies and borders, but there must be many other polarising factors when you did down.

War, particularly long ones would be very polarising, religious beliefs that interpret abortion as murder would be very polarising, countries with huge disparities in social norms between regional areas and cities and the every growing issue of wealth inequality.

You show me a country that's small, affluent and relatively homogeneous like Sweden and differences are going to be much less pronounced.

AfD is a good example,  in a very short period of time they have polarised internally to become very extreme as a result of the EU and immigration.

[Matt]

On 22/04/2020 at 06:20, Chach said:

Please explain how it is "entirely accurate, it is much more than a TV show".

Friends is a TV show. Fox is a corporation of many things but if we're talking purely about Fox News, it's a propaganda machine. The stories are usually presented completely without fact, it's the equivalent of the Daily Mail but televised. Not all, but the majority. Even when there's something that cannot be lied about, their go to either "yeah, but" or "what if...". Trouble is, it's target audience see it as the only "honest network" (I'm going on my family and their friends in the US) and all other news outlets are those who are lying. When I pointed out that if all news outlets lie, they say not FN. I was generally left slack-jawed.

An example when I was over in Arizona was a "report" on how immigrants where taking over Germany and how the Germans where rebelling against the government. The video and captions they showed were of neo-Nazi groups with signs about master races. How do I know that? I speak German, but the others in the room didn't and said "look at what a mess Europe is in, the people are speaking up". I translated the banners for them and they didn't believe me, saying what Fox was "reporting" was true. 

The aim of Fox News is to push anything that will go against the government in general, more so when it's anything liberal led (they were relatively quiet when Congress was controlled by the Republicans, now Congress is ripe for attack constantly). They have consistently gone against who they don't like, often by presenting flat out lies as facts. Trouble is, the demographic they aim at like loud shouty people because they misunderstand that as confidence and strength. These aren't stupid people I'm talking about, they're very kind and intelligent people. But they buy the horseshit because there's been a careful divide created over their lifetime and in the last couple of years Fox News has gone out of their way to create this divide further for their own gain; the more there's a divide, the more viewers they can get in and convert, the more money they get. They're on par with Alex Jones in terms of agendas and selfishness.

[Chach]

2 hours ago, Matt said:

Friends is a TV show. Fox is a corporation of many things but if we're talking purely about Fox News, it's a propaganda machine. The stories are usually presented completely without fact, it's the equivalent of the Daily Mail but televised. Not all, but the majority. Even when there's something that cannot be lied about, their go to either "yeah, but" or "what if...". Trouble is, it's target audience see it as the only "honest network" (I'm going on my family and their friends in the US) and all other news outlets are those who are lying. When I pointed out that if all news outlets lie, they say not FN. I was generally left slack-jawed.

An example when I was over in Arizona was a "report" on how immigrants where taking over Germany and how the Germans where rebelling against the government. The video and captions they showed were of neo-Nazi groups with signs about master races. How do I know that? I speak German, but the others in the room didn't and said "look at what a mess Europe is in, the people are speaking up". I translated the banners for them and they didn't believe me, saying what Fox was "reporting" was true. 

The aim of Fox News is to push anything that will go against the government in general, more so when it's anything liberal led (they were relatively quiet when Congress was controlled by the Republicans, now Congress is ripe for attack constantly). They have consistently gone against who they don't like, often by presenting flat out lies as facts. Trouble is, the demographic they aim at like loud shouty people because they misunderstand that as confidence and strength. These aren't stupid people I'm talking about, they're very kind and intelligent people. But they buy the horseshit because there's been a careful divide created over their lifetime and in the last couple of years Fox News has gone out of their way to create this divide further for their own gain; the more there's a divide, the more viewers they can get in and convert, the more money they get. They're on par with Alex Jones in terms of agendas and selfishness.

Read my first post, its WWE for low information people with a conservative bias. Identifying that and then making causal links that can't be established with any actual data is just a different kind of low information analysis that doesn't really add anything to the conversation.

It's just left wing liberals wanting to feel informed about the situation rather than getting informed about wtf is actually going on. Two sides of the same very basic coin.