Trump/US Politics

[MikeO]

Daughter who is at uni studying psychology, actually her course is much more than that; she's in her mid-thirties and has doctorates and degrees coming out of her ears, far to complex for me to understand most of what she does, but yesterday she told me about The Dunning-Kruger Effect. I'd never heard of it but it defines Trump.

[Bailey]

Are any of you Yanks worried Biden won't get over the line? I have heard some of his speeches recently and he lets out some whoppers. 

How one of them is President and the other is his only challenger boggles me and I thought Boris v Corbyn was bad enough.

[Palfy]

Is Obama’s criticism of Trump playing into Trump’s hands, or do Americans still hold Obama in high enough esteem to listen to, and act on his condemnation of Trump. 
Personally I don’t and I fear that Obama’s attack could have the opposite effect, and rally the undecided into Trump’s corner. 
Also it gives the impression that Biden can’t fight his own battles, which won’t go down to well with the majority of Americans who like a fighter. 

[markjazzbassist]

26 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Are any of you Yanks worried Biden won't get over the line? I have heard some of his speeches recently and he lets out some whoppers. 

How one of them is President and the other is his only challenger boggles me and I thought Boris v Corbyn was bad enough.

Did you see the speech last night by the kid with a stutter?  Said he met Biden at a campain rally and told him about his stutter.  Biden talked with him about his own stutter issues and gave him tips on how to overcome it via practicing speech and marking up his speeches is to help him.  the kid gave a speech at the Democratic National Convention and talked about this.  You can say what you want about Biden but he has a heart and is a genuine working class politician who's been a senator for decades upon decades.  he knows how washington works and how to get it done.  he isn't best buds with a bunch of nutjob extremists like trump is either.  heck even wall street is behind him just because they know where he stands on economic policy and it's not the rollercoaster trump is.

 

i hope and pray he gets over the line, trump is becoming more gnarly everyday.  i'm only worried about what other audibles Trump will try and pull to hold onto power.  Messing with the Postal service is the first one, hopefully they get that fixed.

1 minute ago, Palfy said:

Is Obama’s criticism of Trump playing into Trump’s hands, or do Americans still hold Obama in high enough esteem to listen to, and act on his condemnation of Trump. 
Personally I don’t and I fear that Obama’s attack could have the opposite effect, and rally the undecided into Trump’s corner. 
Also it gives the impression that Biden can’t fight his own battles, which won’t go down to well with the majority of Americans who like a fighter. 

Obama haters are all trump lovers so it doesn't matter, basically liberals are ok on him, centrists loved him, republicans and racists hate him.  his attack will disappear in 2 hours because trump will do something stupid/insane and it will take over the media s

[Palfy]

1 minute ago, markjazzbassist said:

Did you see the speech last night by the kid with a stutter?  Said he met Biden at a campain rally and told him about his stutter.  Biden talked with him about his own stutter issues and gave him tips on how to overcome it via practicing speech and marking up his speeches is to help him.  the kid gave a speech at the Democratic National Convention and talked about this.  You can say what you want about Biden but he has a heart and is a genuine working class politician who's been a senator for decades upon decades.  he knows how washington works and how to get it done.  he isn't best buds with a bunch of nutjob extremists like trump is either.  heck even wall street is behind him just because they know where he stands on economic policy and it's not the rollercoaster trump is.

 

i hope and pray he gets over the line, trump is becoming more gnarly everyday.  i'm only worried about what other audibles Trump will try and pull to hold onto power.  Messing with the Postal service is the first one, hopefully they get that fixed.

Obama haters are all trump lovers so it doesn't matter, basically liberals are ok on him, centrists loved him, republicans and racists hate him.  his attack will disappear in 2 hours because trump will do something stupid/insane and it will take over the media s

I agree that left alone Trump will do more damage to himself over day to day events than Obama in someways distracting attention from that, and getting into a feud with Trump which he will thrive off. 

[markjazzbassist]

11 minutes ago, Palfy said:

I agree that left alone Trump will do more damage to himself over day to day events than Obama in someways distracting attention from that, and getting into a feud with Trump which he will thrive off. 

trump is in a feud with everyone.  yesterday he trashed a city near me for not allowing political clothing at the workplace, he tweeted to stop buying their products (they make car tires and the factory employs 3300 union workers).  like i said the obama thing is a nothing over here, no one cares, they've moved onto the next thing.  tomorrow it will be something else.  

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Did you see the speech last night by the kid with a stutter?  Said he met Biden at a campain rally and told him about his stutter.  Biden talked with him about his own stutter issues and gave him tips on how to overcome it via practicing speech and marking up his speeches is to help him.  the kid gave a speech at the Democratic National Convention and talked about this.  You can say what you want about Biden but he has a heart and is a genuine working class politician who's been a senator for decades upon decades.  he knows how washington works and how to get it done.  he isn't best buds with a bunch of nutjob extremists like trump is either.  heck even wall street is behind him just because they know where he stands on economic policy and it's not the rollercoaster trump is.

Don't get me wrong Biden is clearly a better candidate than Trump, anyone is. I just can't believe he is the best opposition they could muster. He claimed he would "beat Joe Biden" in one speech / interview.

[markjazzbassist]

13 minutes ago, Bailey said:

Don't get me wrong Biden is clearly a better candidate than Trump, anyone is. I just can't believe he is the best opposition they could muster. He claimed he would "beat Joe Biden" in one speech / interview.

I’m not a massive JB fan but I will give him credit he’s super honest.  To your point he has called himself a “transitional candidate” meaning he understands he could die or need to step down at some point meaning Kamala Harris is the worth a bigger look than one usually gives the VP.  Likely if he wins I don’t think he does a second term.  He’s not a power hungry type of guy, I could totally see him pass it off to her, I’m sure they have already spoken about this too.  He’s 77.

[markjazzbassist]

Here’s another one about Biden’s character.  Did this totally outside of the press. Someone caught it on a cell phone.  Spent time helping a homeless man and gave him money for food

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/17/594421324/joe-biden-and-a-homeless-veteran-have-a-very-human-moment

 

 

[Matt]

Mike;

https://youtu.be/rW9R6jgE7SQ

[Palfy]

21 hours ago, MikeO said:

Daughter who is at uni studying psychology, actually her course is much more than that; she's in her mid-thirties and has doctorates and degrees coming out of her ears, far to complex for me to understand most of what she does, but yesterday she told me about The Dunning-Kruger Effect. I'd never heard of it but it defines Trump.

That’s a new one on me, can’t wait for the right moment to use it

[Cornish Steve]

Hate to say it, but Trump will win, partly through vote suppression but mostly by leveraging fear. 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Hate to say it, but Trump will win, partly through vote suppression but mostly by leveraging fear. 

And because Biden has no appeal he’s old boring and grey, can’t the Democrats come up with a more energetic and forceful candidate, Trump was there for the taking and when the democrats needed a warrior to go into battle with him, they bring on pipe slippers and rocking chair man 

[dunlopp9987]

Hard times here right now. RBG was a once-in-a-lifetime personality, a hero for women and marginalized people all over this country. I have to say, her death has affected myself and the people around me far greater than any in recent memory. 

I have so many friends who are in those marginalized communities that RBG fought so hard to stand up for, and it's a scary time right now following her death. If the Republicans push through a nominee before the election, a) the hypocrisy will be rather astonishing and b) will potentially harm my friends and family for the rest of our lifetimes. 

I know a lot of our immediate reactions were fear and resignation that we were doomed, but after sitting with this for a bit...that's not how RBG would want her legacy remembered. She was one badass woman and the thing she would want most is for us to stand up and fight. AND VOTE.

[markjazzbassist]

8 hours ago, dunlopp9987 said:

Hard times here right now. RBG was a once-in-a-lifetime personality, a hero for women and marginalized people all over this country. I have to say, her death has affected myself and the people around me far greater than any in recent memory. 

I have so many friends who are in those marginalized communities that RBG fought so hard to stand up for, and it's a scary time right now following her death. If the Republicans push through a nominee before the election, a) the hypocrisy will be rather astonishing and b) will potentially harm my friends and family for the rest of our lifetimes. 

I know a lot of our immediate reactions were fear and resignation that we were doomed, but after sitting with this for a bit...that's not how RBG would want her legacy remembered. She was one badass woman and the thing she would want most is for us to stand up and fight. AND VOTE.

worst timing possible, hopefully some moderate repubs will vote no or block it.  the court could be staunchly republican for decades which would be scary.  back to 1940's era beliefs.

[holystove]

I don't really understand how the death of a supreme court judge is discribed as the beginning of the end of liberal values and civil liberties in the US.  How fragile is the US constitutional system?  Should an unelected member of the judiciary have such power as to be able to substantially influence policy regarding women's and marginalized communities' rights?

In the UK, the European Court of Justice was often criticized for being a political court, but it's nothing in comparison to the US Supreme Court.  Really strange to watch from this side of the pond.

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, holystove said:

I don't really understand how the death of a supreme court judge is discribed as the beginning of the end of liberal values and civil liberties in the US.  How fragile is the US constitutional system?  Should an unelected member of the judiciary have such power as to be able to substantially influence policy regarding women's and marginalized communities' rights?

In the UK, the European Court of Justice was often criticized for being a political court, but it's nothing in comparison to the US Supreme Court.  Really strange to watch from this side of the pond.

it hasn't happened overnight, trump put in 2 judges (1 of whom replaced a liberal) so before RBG died it was already a conservative court with moderate conservative Chief Justice Roberts being the "swing vote".  With RBG gone, that is a 3rd judge appointed by Trump, even if Roberts went left on a decision the hard righters now outnumber the moderates and liberals, so it's conservative decisions all the way.  If Biden is elected there is a possibility Breyer and Thomas retire during his term, 1 lib 1 conservative.  that would put the court back to it's current state.  Alito is 70, if biden wins 2 terms he could possible be gone too and is a conservative.

 

the real problem is it is an appointment for life, so these judges are greedy and keep it until death and then people get upset when the opposite congress replaces them.  they should simply be term limited or forced to retire at say 70, that would make it less political.  because there would be a lot more incoming/outgoing and it wouldn't lock up the court for long periods of time.  some of them do retire but the majority don't, they let death do it.

[Matt]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-54265571
 

i hope and pray that this didn’t happen. If it did, the US needs to suffer sanctions because this administration continues to think it can get away with the unacceptable 

[markjazzbassist]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-54265571
 

i hope and pray that this didn’t happen. If it did, the US needs to suffer sanctions because this administration continues to think it can get away with the unacceptable 

It happened.  It’s sickening 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-54265571
 

i hope and pray that this didn’t happen. If it did, the US needs to suffer sanctions because this administration continues to think it can get away with the unacceptable 

If it did then they are aligning themselves quite close to the Nazi Party imo. 

[Matt]

28 minutes ago, Palfy said:

If it did then they are aligning themselves quite close to the Nazi Party imo. 

They’ve been doing that for years. No one hits back because they’re #1 superpower 

[pete0]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

If it did then they are aligning themselves quite close to the Nazi Party imo. 

And we're their closest allies 

[Sibdane]

Christ. What's next?

[markjazzbassist]

45 minutes ago, Sibdane said:

Christ. What's next?

he already put the executive order for Patriotic Education in. yep, fact.  Nazi nationalism is coming.

[Palfy]

8 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

he already put the executive order for Patriotic Education in. yep, fact.  Nazi nationalism is coming.

We live in a fucked up world mate, and unfortunately we live under the shadow of the two most fucked up Government's in the western world. 
Welcome to the pleasure dome. 

[Elston Gunnn]

Our American fascist moment is here.  Actually has been here for awhile.

Here’s an article by Matthew MacWilliams, author of On Fascism.  Highly recommended.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681

About halfway through, the paragraph that begins, “The political path to galvanize America authoritarianism,” is a concise summary of fascism.

”This [fascist] path reads like the playbook guidingTrump administration and campaign.”

”Trumpism is McCarthyism on steroids, and its full expression menaces the stability of our democracy.  A country where authoritarian ideals are ascendant, and remain ascendant, is no longer a democracy.  It is on the road to fascism, or what some now call, euphemistically, illiberal democracy.”

.................................

Trump and his Republican enablers in Congress and in several “swing-state” legislatures are actively — repeat: actively, not theoretically — planning to subvert the election by denying the legitimacy of hundreds of thousands of ballots.  Planning, right now, as Trump openly said last night, to “get rid of the ballots.”  Trump supporters will support this fascist plan.  And Republicans in Congress will refuse to directly castigate Trump, falling back on vague boilerplate about the sanctity of our elections, thus implying Trump would never do such a thing.  He will.  He is.  Republican election officials will.  They are.

Whatever my own concerns about racist, white nationalist, reactionary populist trends in the Republican Party, I still did not imagine such a moment.  Our fascist moment is here.  Our constitutional democratic republic is in immediate danger.

If Trump is allowed to steal the election, we will descend more deeply into an era — 10 years, 20, longer? — of fascism versus resistance.

 

 

[markjazzbassist]

scary days for sure.  

[MikeO]

[Palfy]

7 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Classic 

[Elston Gunnn]

This is a follow-up to my post last week.  It’s an update re our rapid descent into a constitutional crisis.  There’s a bit of American history here. Hope it doesn’t bore and that, instead, both the brief history commentary and the discussion of the Supreme Court justices is helpful in understanding the specific way Republicans intend to steal the upcoming Presidential election.  That is their fascist intent.

In the pandemic, we in the U.S. are seeing the revenge of American radical individualism — “Nobody can make me wear a mask!”  (You probably have some of that in England and Europe, too.  Sorry if you’ve adopted elements of our extreme individualism and nihilism.)  Absent an overwhelming Biden victory, we should expect Electoral College chaos, in which we should further expect to witness the revenge of the Founding Fathers’ skepticism about democracy.

Distrusting nascent democracy, equating it with “lesser men, licentiousness, and mob rule,” the Founders offered, as one historian put it, “an elitist theory of democracy.”  They intended to “filter” democratic urges, in several ways, through the “best men.”  Under pressure to accommodate new democratic impulses, they wrote a constitution to control those impulses.

Over time, of course, our Constitution has undergone democratization.  But Republican reactionary populism and fascism — convincing large segments of “the people” to undercut their own class interests in favor of culture war triumphalism — relies on minority rule.

Trump and Republican leaders do believe the polls that consistently show Trump will lose if the election proceeds in anything approaching a normal fashion.  They hold out hope that “hidden” Trump voters will emerge, but they don’t count on that.

So Republicans are planning to create a constitutional crisis.  Trump has already been doing that through a variety of incendiary statements.  Republican leaders, now acolytes of Justice Gorsuch’s “originalism” and “textualism,” will be quoting the Constitution’s Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 2: “Each State shall appoint, in such manner as the legislature thereof may direct, a number of electors....”  We have seen no evidence thus far to think Republicans in battleground states will act honorably and democratically.  Because Republicans control, through gerrymandering, the state legislatures in most of the fiercely contested states, even if Biden appears clearly to have won said states, these Republicans will point to “ballot chaos” and appoint an “alternate slate” of electors, pledged to support Trump.

Will the Supreme Court decide the election?  If so, I’d assume right-wingers Thomas, Alito, and Barrett will support fascism.  The 3 liberals will vote to uphold democracy.  That leaves Roberts, Kavanaugh, and Gorsuch, all conservatives.  Justice Gorsuch, “accepting” his own “originalist/textualist” arguments presented by Republican counsel, could easily find that the Founding Fathers empowered state legislatures, not voters, to select the electors to the Electoral College.  How could he not rule according to his own fastidious judicial philosophy?

In that ominous scenario, would Roberts and Kavanaugh uphold democracy?  I suppose Roberts would himself prefer to support democracy, and thus the Biden electors.  But if he knows, as he would, that Kavanaugh intends to support the Trump electors, then Roberts might reluctantly vote with the fascists, as Roberts might prefer a 6-3 to a 5-4 Trump majority.  Would Roberts and/or Kavanaugh prefer any 6-3 [likely Trump] decision to any 5-4 [possibly Biden] decision?  I’ll guess Kavanaugh will be the key.  I’m just guessing.  Who knows what exactly will happen throughout November, what Trump and other fascists will do, what outraged Democrats will say and do.

I hope Trump and I are both misreading the Supreme Court.  As long as I’m hoping, I’ll hope for a 9-0 decision repudiating the fascists’ attempt to overthrow our constitutional democratic republic.  Given the praise among Trump supporters for a “generational conservative Court,” a repudiation (even 7-2) by that conservative Court of an attempted coup would go a long way toward breaking our fascist fever.