Aidan Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said: Just to refresh your memoryhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42042018 We were 16th in the table, 2 points off the relegation zone and 4 off the bottom of the table. We were on a downward spiral and a complete mess . I love your confidence but that is far too close for me I remember where we were. And I was still confident we had the quality to get out of that. Sam wasn't the right choice, if have rather kept Unsy until the summer. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I remember where we were. And I was still confident we had the quality to get out of that. Sam wasn't the right choice, if have rather kept Unsy until the summer.As I say if you don’t think we were in the shit then I really do admire your confidence , things couldn’t really have got much worse so personally I had seen enough Paddock 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I still class injured players as our players. Well we were actually 13th not 16th after the West Ham match. We had just won 4-0 in Unsworths last match in charge.... that’s moving up not down. we can all interpret the stats to suite our own agendas. If we would have carried in gaining the points at the rate Unsworth did.... then we would have been top ten easily. Which as you suggest would make Unsworth a very good manager... as there isn’t many managers who could manage a top ten finish with this lot. All opinions though as we have no idea if he would have improved or declined. Im one of the fools that thinks the squad is good enough to finish in the top ten. I don’t think I’m the only one either. What I do agree with, is that the squad is t good enough. We need new players. I think we need changes at the top just as much, if not more. Question: how pathetically bad we’re our defence last year? Pretty much the same players. Baines is injured yes... but generally it’s the same defence. Or should we be bringing Stek back in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said: He did not say more boring in attack he said more boring in his team selection .He should maybe have chosen his words better but I agree with what he was getting at When he first came in he immediately sorted out the defence and we stopped conceding goals and started picking up points and rising up the table Once it looked like we were out of trouble he started to do what most fans wanted him to do and started playing more attack minded players and all of a sudden we start getting battered again and are now in real danger of getting sucked back in to a relegation scrap So it makes perfect sense to me that we go back to basics again These players have failed miserably under 3 separate managers now and still some people think the problem is the manager. When do you start thinking maybe it’s the players that are the problem? I thought he said that we needed to be a bit more boring generally? Bar Bolasie his team selection hasn' changed. We have tried to get forward a little more in the last couple of games so I think he does mean that he wants to sit in a bit more, be more compact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 We can not turn back the clock so we get started on what we do have. Sam is our manager and he needs support, not blind stupid hatred. Like him or not he needs our help he is not going anywhere just now. MikeO and Newty82 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I still class injured players as our players. Well we were actually 13th not 16th after the West Ham match. We had just won 4-0 in Unsworths last match in charge.... that’s moving up not down. we can all interpret the stats to suite our own agendas. If we would have carried in gaining the points at the rate Unsworth did.... then we would have been top ten easily. Which as you suggest would make Unsworth a very good manager... as there isn’t many managers who could manage a top ten finish with this lot. All opinions though as we have no idea if he would have improved or declined. Im one of the fools that thinks the squad is good enough to finish in the top ten. I don’t think I’m the only one either. What I do agree with, is that the squad is t good enough. We need new players. I think we need changes at the top just as much, if not more. Question: how pathetically bad we’re our defence last year? Pretty much the same players. Baines is injured yes... but generally it’s the same defence. Or should we be bringing Stek back in?The decision to appoint Allardyce was made after the Southampton game he was already here by the time we played West Ham It’s an extremely flawed argument to say if we had continued picking up points at the rate Unsworth did . He only managed 5 league games, 4 against fellow strugglers and one against a Watford side that had lost the plot. We got played off the park by Palace, Leicester and Southampton ( all shite teams) and the Watford game was heading the same way until we had a huge stroke of luck with their keeper going off injured For the West Ham game it could be argued that the players were lifted by the news Allardyce had been appointed Should we have kept Traore because if he had of continued scoring at his rate he would have won the golden boot? I really do get that people are unhappy with Allardyce but I really can’t understand how anyone can think Unsworth was the answer To answer your question about our defence last season , I thought they were decent This season however we have missed Coleman badly Baines, Hags and Williams are now all too old to be playing week in week out and we have Coco at left back World of difference ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, nogs said: That's not really true though. Go look at the team he put out first game v Huddersfield - only Gana who is an out and out defensive midfielder, Rooney in the middle with Davies. So I don't know what he means by 'boring' in his team selection. The worst team he has put out to my mind so far was playing McCarthy, Gana and Schneiderlin at Bournemouth, and we have been fucking abysmal since. The lineup against Huddersfield was, for all intents and purposes, Unsworth’s. Crooked Sam kept the same team line-up, which was a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 It’s not a flawed argument at all Dunc, it’s just not yours. When trying to put across possible outcomes based on limited statistical facts... then all you have are he facts available. I also pointed out several times, that there is no way of knowing... because there isn’t. You pointed out that we got played off the park against several teams under Unsworth, but we still picked up points. We have been played off the face of the earth under Sam and picked up a heavy goals against column, but that’s ok? In all games we pick turning points where we have been lucky to get the result. We could do the same for games we have drawn or lost, but we don’t. I don’t think we are the luckiest team in the league.... nowhere near. We have had just as many deflections, slices, great goals against, and bad decisions. They just dont support our arguments very well. Many people have suggested that Sam just being announced is the reason for the West Ham game. I honestly think Unsworth deserves more respect for that. Several players said they were so happy that they could give Unsworth a result in that game, but people still suggest it wasn’t down to him. Who knows how well or bad Traore would have done, I dont. But I am knowledgable enough to know that Messi might not have as much as an impact as a fit Welbeck in our team and vice versa. Just the same as if Watford’s goalkeeper had stayed on, we don’t know that he might of brought a player down, gave away a penalty and got sent off in the very next attack. He was replaced with a competent progressional as well. I’m not going to go round in circles with you with this as you have a valid and well thought out opinion on this, and your not going to change. I respectfully disagree with it, but recognise your valid points. On Coleman I agree 100%. I think he has been a massive miss for us. People have always argued that defence isn’t his strong point, but I have never agreed with this, as he plays the sweeper role excellently for us. A player with energy and speed getting round the back to tidy up is what he have desperately missed. Bailey and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Coleman hasn't been missed that much, Kenny has been one of our most consistent performers while the rest have been rubbish. pete0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Bill said: Coleman hasn't been missed that much, Kenny has been one of our most consistent performers while the rest have been rubbish. Your right, Kenny has been brilliant. I do think we have missed Coleman though as we don’t have anyone with enough speed to get behind our defence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Shukes said: Your right, Kenny has been brilliant. I do think we have missed Coleman though as we don’t have anyone with enough speed to get behind our defence. Plenty of people have been getting behind our defence Shukes and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Bill Kenny has been very solid no doubt, but he doesn't add goals which is what seamus brings, another attacking threat. for that reason i believe we still miss seamus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, markjazzbassist said: Bill Kenny has been very solid no doubt, but he doesn't add goals which is what seamus brings, another attacking threat. for that reason i believe we still miss seamus. decent voice though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 It’s not a flawed argument at all Dunc, it’s just not yours. When trying to put across possible outcomes based on limited statistical facts... then all you have are he facts available. I also pointed out several times, that there is no way of knowing... because there isn’t. You pointed out that we got played off the park against several teams under Unsworth, but we still picked up points. We have been played off the face of the earth under Sam and picked up a heavy goals against column, but that’s ok? In all games we pick turning points where we have been lucky to get the result. We could do the same for games we have drawn or lost, but we don’t. I don’t think we are the luckiest team in the league.... nowhere near. We have had just as many deflections, slices, great goals against, and bad decisions. They just dont support our arguments very well. Many people have suggested that Sam just being announced is the reason for the West Ham game. I honestly think Unsworth deserves more respect for that. Several players said they were so happy that they could give Unsworth a result in that game, but people still suggest it wasn’t down to him. Who knows how well or bad Traore would have done, I dont. But I am knowledgable enough to know that Messi might not have as much as an impact as a fit Welbeck in our team and vice versa. Just the same as if Watford’s goalkeeper had stayed on, we don’t know that he might of brought a player down, gave away a penalty and got sent off in the very next attack. He was replaced with a competent progressional as well. I’m not going to go round in circles with you with this as you have a valid and well thought out opinion on this, and your not going to change. I respectfully disagree with it, but recognise your valid points. On Coleman I agree 100%. I think he has been a massive miss for us. People have always argued that defence isn’t his strong point, but I have never agreed with this, as he plays the sweeper role excellently for us. A player with energy and speed getting round the back to tidy up is what he have desperately missed.Of cause it’s a flawed argument . You are just looking at stats in isolation ,you are completely ignoring who the opposition were , how we played in those games and the luck involved in getting points away at Palace and home to Watford Of his 8 games in charge there was one good performance , his last game , the rest we were woeful The West Ham game probably was influenced by the players wanting to give him a win in his last game , he is a terrific bloke and a big blue, so why wouldn’t they?But that is part of the problem, some people look at it through blue tinted glasses If Roy Hodgson has come in and got exactly the same performances and results he would have been strung up from the nearest lamppost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said: Of cause it’s a flawed argument . You are just looking at stats in isolation ,you are completely ignoring who the opposition were , how we played in those games and the luck involved in getting points away at Palace and home to Watford Of his 8 games in charge there was one good performance , his last game , the rest we were woeful The West Ham game probably was influenced by the players wanting to give him a win in his last game , he is a terrific bloke and a big blue, so why wouldn’t they? But that is part of the problem, some people look at it through blue tinted glasses If Roy Hodgson has come in and got exactly the same performances and results he would have been strung up from the nearest lamppost Of course it’s not flawed, it’s the only factual stats you can talk about. I’m talking about our missed chances and unlucky bounces as well as the ISOLATED incidents where you thought the other team were unlucky. Your also taking your own opinion as fact, it’s not in any way. You say if Roy had come in and gained the same results he would have been strung up, so are you stringing Sam up as his results have been worse? Your also saying it was one good performance in 8. Again... your opinion. I saw it differently. I saw him and the players make extra effort from the start. I saw a kid play against Chelsea ... and Chelsea we’re lucky, but of course that was against us so t doesn’t count. And just for reference, four of those seven so called reserve players have been performing in the premier league for Chelsea. I also watched those matches and thought that until we went behind we were unlucky ourselves... but again it only counts when the other team are unlucky. Am I right in saying that Sam only kept a few clean sheets because he was new and the players thought, he’s a great guy! What a load of crap! You telling me the players could have turned on those performances anytime and only decided to on his last day... fuck me I didnt realise football was easy. Dunc I would never try and steal a bone from you haha! Let’s just stick to our opinions and accept that we’re never gonna agree with each other. Love your passion Dunc. I just hope we can get a few positive results soon so we can all find some common ground. Bailey and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Oh and your probably right... I am one of those blue tinted glasses guys. I am much more intelligent when speaking about anything other than Everton. As soon as it’s Everton.... all I see is blue and ya winning the next match, whoever the opposition. You would have thought after years of disappointment I would have learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Of course it’s not flawed, it’s the only factual stats you can talk about. I’m talking about our missed chances and unlucky bounces as well as the ISOLATED incidents where you thought the other team were unlucky. Your also taking your own opinion as fact, it’s not in any way. You say if Roy had come in and gained the same results he would have been strung up, so are you stringing Sam up as his results have been worse? Your also saying it was one good performance in 8. Again... your opinion. I saw it differently. I saw him and the players make extra effort from the start. I saw a kid play against Chelsea ... and Chelsea we’re lucky, but of course that was against us so t doesn’t count. And just for reference, four of those seven so called reserve players have been performing in the premier league for Chelsea. I also watched those matches and thought that until we went behind we were unlucky ourselves... but again it only counts when the other team are unlucky. Am I right in saying that Sam only kept a few clean sheets because he was new and the players thought, he’s a great guy! What a load of crap! You telling me the players could have turned on those performances anytime and only decided to on his last day... fuck me I didnt realise football was easy. Dunc I would never try and steal a bone from you haha! Let’s just stick to our opinions and accept that we’re never gonna agree with each other. Love your passion Dunc. I just hope we can get a few positive results soon so we can all find some common ground.Stats mean nothing without context so to base your entire argument on stats alone has to be flawed , especially as Unsworth hasn’t had as many games What do your stats look like if you compare Unsworth’s 8 games with Allardyces first 8 games? I will give you the Chelsea game , to be fair that was a good performance, but you can’t seriously think we played well in any of the games in between ?I was meaning the respect the players had for Unsworth was probably a contributing factor against West Ham , just as I believe Sam sat in the stands would have had an effect on the players mindset for that game But yes let’s agree to disagree for everyone’s sanity! Shukes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted January 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Said today that’s it for the window. I really hope it’s bluff and we have a left back and n the pipeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Paddock said: Said today that’s it for the window. I really hope it’s bluff and we have a left back and n the pipeline Bloody hope so. There's no way our problems can be solved with just a couple of forwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Posted January 19, 2018 Report Share Posted January 19, 2018 Interesting stat that doesn't reflect well on Allardyce - 222 games since Everton last went this long without a shot on target. Need a hatful tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shukes Posted January 20, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Sam is shit. End off! Some can try and make excuses, but facts are facts. He is doing shit! And sorry but it’s not just the players. Matt, Bailey, markjazzbassist and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Shukes said: Sam is shit. End off! Some can try and make excuses, but facts are facts. He is doing shit! And sorry but it’s not just the players. Never was. Bringing in a “relegation expert” has been a massive kick to morale. I don’t care what comes out in the press about “wanting or excited to play for him”, he is a detriment to the club and it’s becoming more and more obvious. And I was really looking forward to my humble pie too. markjazzbassist and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Your not gonna get to taste it Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 not good enough, needs to be replaced the minute we hit 40 points possibly sooner if this play persists. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 To be fair, we can bore teams until they fall asleep then hit them on the break...... and still be off target! Cornish Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Allardyce will get stick, and rightfully so, but when was the last time we saw any movement?! It’s been the standout problem for years now... I bet we’re shithot at musical statues! Until we sort this out, we’ll struggle as we’re far too easy to defend against, in turn giving our opponent too many opportunities to attack us. With the attacking options we’ve got now, it’s got to be the main focus on/off the training ground from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, c1982 said: Allardyce will get stick, and rightfully so, but when was the last time we saw any movement?! It’s been the standout problem for years now... I bet we’re shithot at musical statues! Until we sort this out, we’ll struggle as we’re far too easy to defend against, in turn giving our opponent too many opportunities to attack us. With the attacking options we’ve got now, it’s got to be the main focus on/off the training ground from now on. The only movement we have is when the wingers come inside and lose their width too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 I have witnessed worse teams fight more. These are meant to be professionals. How can they forget basics so fast? How can they not know that even if your ability isn’t up to scratch... then fight for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 18 minutes ago, Shukes said: I have witnessed worse teams fight more. These are meant to be professionals. How can they forget basics so fast? How can they not know that even if your ability isn’t up to scratch... then fight for it? They’re mentally drained after a shit start with an arrogant manager with zero man-management skills before being left in limbo for a month and then declared relegation fodder by bringing in one of the most negative managers in the game. Im not excusing their shite performances, but I understand why it’s happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggytop Posted January 20, 2018 Report Share Posted January 20, 2018 Please leave now Sam, you have a reputation for shore up defences, really? Cos it's not being seen here. We have a team that give the ball away without being under pressure, do you not see it? A player who can't play left back, yet continually you play him,. A DM who doesn't want to tackle, and only passes the ball sideways or backwards. its just not good enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.