General Election/UK Politics

[Hafnia]

31 minutes ago, Matt said:

He's also representative of a lot of the uneducated and ignorant who are joining the riots.

No, that's no different. Round them up and educate them, invest in the communities so this nonsense dies down, make them do community service repairing damage and get them to help people out who they see as "the issue". Shifting the problem never ever works. 

Not gonna paste the link but a person in the Asian community wrote a superb piece basically calling for leadership on their side saying they are not blameless. He goes on to detail reasons - this is the only way we  will make progress. Hatred needs self policing - not self promoting.

its no different to being at a football match and fans calling own fans out.  If the likes of man united and Liverpool did this does anyone think it would escalate the way it has? No - it's all "what about that lot doing plane gestures" - "yeah but you lot were calling us murderers" ....... there is no end to it. Banning offenders doesn't stop the issue - eradicating tragedy chanting etc from your own base does. 

[Hafnia]

if only I had this video to refer to the other night. 14 minutes of absolute common sense from an ex police chief superintendent. Pity the YouTube title isn't in any way related to what he's talking about. 

kinda confirms much of the "sisters, mates, aunties said " stuff I have been told first hand, and not from someone who is a company man. 8:30 for those who just want to understand the difference in appetite to charge.  For context this is the man who despite being conservative called for Boris and co to face criminal charges for the Downing Street party. He was cut off by BBC the other day for starting to tell truths. 
 

 

[Matt]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Not gonna paste the link but a person in the Asian community wrote a superb piece basically calling for leadership on their side saying they are not blameless. He goes on to detail reasons - this is the only way we  will make progress. Hatred needs self policing - not self promoting.

its no different to being at a football match and fans calling own fans out.  If the likes of man united and Liverpool did this does anyone think it would escalate the way it has? No - it's all "what about that lot doing plane gestures" - "yeah but you lot were calling us murderers" ....... there is no end to it. Banning offenders doesn't stop the issue - eradicating tragedy chanting etc from your own base does. 

Any conflict has 2 sides, so it's good to see that people are taking positive action on both sides.

The only way you end this is education and not prohibition or sanctions.

[Palfy]

4 hours ago, patto said:

Why did he spend so long with him you knew from the start Gary was a fkn idiot I bet he never even went to Middlesbrough. 
yeah deport all the rioters as long as it’s from both sides. 

Definitely from both sides no matter what colour or what religion. 

[Matt]

First 2 sentences passed, 32 months for a 69 year old and 41 year old.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy8497l7dx8t

 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

First 2 sentences passed, 32 months for a 69 year old and 41 year old.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cy8497l7dx8t

 

Im assuming things like suspended sentences for paedophiles are now a thing of the past? 
 

I'm all for zero tolerance - unfortunately like we've seen at Everton authorities have different views of different cases and when you are a showcase you tend to get disparity. 
 

Internet keeps receipts Prime minister - you need to tread very very carefully. 

[patto]

22 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Im assuming things like suspended sentences for paedophiles are now a thing of the past? 
 

I'm all for zero tolerance - unfortunately like we've seen at Everton authorities have different views of different cases and when you are a showcase you tend to get disparity. 
 

Internet keeps receipts Prime minister - you need to tread very very carefully. 

It’s community service for rape at the moment. 

[Palfy]

2 hours ago, Hafnia said:

Internet keeps receipts Prime minister - you need to tread very very carefully. 

Aren’t you pleased to see people who take to our streets to cause mayhem, through violence, criminal damage to property of innocent people, businesses looted, and people who commit arson, being arrested and sentenced if found guilty or admit their guilt. 
From reading your posts you have said you are definitely against any violence, looting, criminal damage and so forth. 
They have been sentenced for the crimes they committed, no one forced them to take to the streets and do what they did, don’t feel sorry for them mate they got what they deserved, try speaking to the victims of their actions they won’t have any sympathy for them. 
It’s down to the police the courts and politicians to stop these people from taking the actions they have taken, and show others like them it won’t be tolerated and if you do choose to riot you will face the consequences, from the turn out of last night the message might just be getting through, which is good thing for everyone who doesn’t go out rioting. 

[patto]

It will be interesting to see what happens to Ricky Jones the Labour councillor 

[Romey 1878]

21 minutes ago, patto said:

It will be interesting to see what happens to Ricky Jones the Labour councillor 

Labour have suspended him and he's been arrested and is in custody.

[Hafnia]

3 hours ago, Palfy said:

Aren’t you pleased to see people who take to our streets to cause mayhem, through violence, criminal damage to property of innocent people, businesses looted, and people who commit arson, being arrested and sentenced if found guilty or admit their guilt. 
From reading your posts you have said you are definitely against any violence, looting, criminal damage and so forth. 
They have been sentenced for the crimes they committed, no one forced them to take to the streets and do what they did, don’t feel sorry for them mate they got what they deserved, try speaking to the victims of their actions they won’t have any sympathy for them. 
It’s down to the police the courts and politicians to stop these people from taking the actions they have taken, and show others like them it won’t be tolerated and if you do choose to riot you will face the consequences, from the turn out of last night the message might just be getting through, which is good thing for everyone who doesn’t go out rioting. 

Did you miss me saying that I was all for zero tolerance? Assuming you did I also said that I was for facial recognition, national service for young offenders etc.

im well aware that you never missed all the things I've just repeated - so I'm unsure why you are trying to represent what I've said in a way that suggests I'm unhappy with harsh punishments.

the simple crux of my argument is - the second that leniency is shown to other people with more serious/equally serious crimes then he will be facing very tough examinations. I personally think he's deluded and can't see this and that's why the unrest will be simmering at best. 

[Hafnia]

2 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

Labour have suspended him and he's been arrested and is in custody.

I'm expecting him to have a very quick turnaround and be sentenced to at least 3 years - based on current run rates.   Do I think that will happen???......... nope. Maybe mr starmer will use him as his Everton "look we can self regulate" 

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Did you miss me saying that I was all for zero tolerance? Assuming you did I also said that I was for facial recognition, national service for young offenders etc.

im well aware that you never missed all the things I've just repeated - so I'm unsure why you are trying to represent what I've said in a way that suggests I'm unhappy with harsh punishments.

the simple crux of my argument is - the second that leniency is shown to other people with more serious/equally serious crimes then he will be facing very tough examinations. I personally think he's deluded and can't see this and that's why the unrest will be simmering at best. 

No I didn’t miss what you said, I’m more surprised that you may possibly think that the sentences are harsh from what you said regarding paedophiles and what we’ve seen at Everton. 
Where I do agree with you that paedohiles should be given the longest sentence available for their crimes, I fail to see how you can make comparisons with what we have seen on our streets in the last week, and Everton being treated differently for PSR breaches than say Chelsea or City. 
What we were witnessing had to stop before people started losing their lives, and the sentences being meted out seem to be making the difference. 
The highest penalty for what most are being convicted of is 5 years, yet those who have pleaded guilty have had a lesser sentence, I believe those who plead not guilty and elect for trial by jury and are found guilty face sentencing closer to the maximum penalty, but that is standard practice for all types of charges. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

No I didn’t miss what you said, I’m more surprised that you may possibly think that the sentences are harsh from what you said regarding paedophiles and what we’ve seen at Everton. 
Where I do agree with you that paedohiles should be given the longest sentence available for their crimes, I fail to see how you can make comparisons with what we have seen on our streets in the last week, and Everton being treated differently for PSR breaches than say Chelsea or City. 
What we were witnessing had to stop before people started losing their lives, and the sentences being meted out seem to be making the difference. 
The highest penalty for what most are being convicted of is 5 years, yet those who have pleaded guilty have had a lesser sentence, I believe those who plead not guilty and elect for trial by jury and are found guilty face sentencing closer to the maximum penalty, but that is standard practice for all types of charges. 

"Surprised you may possibly think?" -

maybe ask me what "I do think" rather than snidely reframe what I have said with some faux disappointment from a conclusion you created for yourself. 

it's quite clear that the word that most appropriately defines the scenario I was framing was "disproportionate" as opposed to "harsh". 

it's quite clear by the theme of my posts that my concerns lie in my distrust of our establishment and that their erratic inconsistencies will further fuel the outrage of many people who have had enough of their gaslighting - I call it gaslighting because surely no one could be so unintentionally stupid. 
 

you fail to see how I can compare Everton with what happened on our streets last week? Quite simply Everton felt that punishments were unprecedented and disproportionate and used as a show case.  oh.... wait there? Did you want me to suggest that Everton getting docked points was equal to lives being put at risk? Sorry - it's an Everton forum - appropriate use of an alternative subject matter to make my point. Nice try. 

Thing is Palf - I take care to ensure I word my posts on this topic correctly and try not to get cheap. Blue did it the other night - now you.  Disappointing.

[Palfy]

51 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

"Surprised you may possibly think?" -

maybe ask me what "I do think" rather than snidely reframe what I have said with some faux disappointment from a conclusion you created for yourself. 

it's quite clear that the word that most appropriately defines the scenario I was framing was "disproportionate" as opposed to "harsh". 

it's quite clear by the theme of my posts that my concerns lie in my distrust of our establishment and that their erratic inconsistencies will further fuel the outrage of many people who have had enough of their gaslighting - I call it gaslighting because surely no one could be so unintentionally stupid. 
 

you fail to see how I can compare Everton with what happened on our streets last week? Quite simply Everton felt that punishments were unprecedented and disproportionate and used as a show case.  oh.... wait there? Did you want me to suggest that Everton getting docked points was equal to lives being put at risk? Sorry - it's an Everton forum - appropriate use of an alternative subject matter to make my point. Nice try. 

Thing is Palf - I take care to ensure I word my posts on this topic correctly and try not to get cheap. Blue did it the other night - now you.  Disappointing.

You’ve said what you think so I’ve no need to ask what you think. 
Not trying to get cheap mate just trying to understand why you think their sentences are disproportionate, when you condemned the atrocities committed during the riots and you advocate zero tolerance. The sentences passed are as I said before well below the maximum they could have received for the offence committed, maybe you should share what sentence you think they should have received. 

[Matt]

8 hours ago, Hafnia said:

"Surprised you may possibly think?" -

maybe ask me what "I do think" rather than snidely reframe what I have said with some faux disappointment from a conclusion you created for yourself. 

it's quite clear that the word that most appropriately defines the scenario I was framing was "disproportionate" as opposed to "harsh". 

it's quite clear by the theme of my posts that my concerns lie in my distrust of our establishment and that their erratic inconsistencies will further fuel the outrage of many people who have had enough of their gaslighting - I call it gaslighting because surely no one could be so unintentionally stupid. 
 

you fail to see how I can compare Everton with what happened on our streets last week? Quite simply Everton felt that punishments were unprecedented and disproportionate and used as a show case.  oh.... wait there? Did you want me to suggest that Everton getting docked points was equal to lives being put at risk? Sorry - it's an Everton forum - appropriate use of an alternative subject matter to make my point. Nice try. 

Thing is Palf - I take care to ensure I word my posts on this topic correctly and try not to get cheap. Blue did it the other night - now you.  Disappointing.

In their defence I can see where both of them were coming from. It's not always as clear as you think mate and not everyone can connect the dots. Personally I thought LBs posts were well put and thought out as have yours. Even Palfy has gotten someone to write mostly coherent posts! My head has a hard time to find the dots sometimes, but this discussion has for the most part been quite balanced and respectful, which is a credit to all considering the subject matter. But neither LB not Palfy are trying to get at you, there's nothing there to disappoint. They've been, as I read it, trying to join dots and that's causing frustration. But they/we have to ask if the debate is to go anywhere and I've "enjoyed" watching TT be so mature around the topic considering it's seriousness and sensitivity. Keep it up folks

 

[Hafnia]

6 hours ago, Palfy said:

You’ve said what you think so I’ve no need to ask what you think. 
Not trying to get cheap mate just trying to understand why you think their sentences are disproportionate, when you condemned the atrocities committed during the riots and you advocate zero tolerance. The sentences passed are as I said before well below the maximum they could have received for the offence committed, maybe you should share what sentence you think they should have received. 

look at what I actually said rather than what you hoped I meant. 

i clearly stated in response to the sentences given out "I assume suspended sentences for paedophiles are now a thing of the past".  There's one of your disproportionate answers right there.... unless you want me to go and paste loads that is being put out there now? 

Do I actually need to tell you that people will be watching the sentences of other crimes eagerly? The LA riots were kicked off cos the officers who battered Rodney King were let off. The knock on was that OJ Simpson escaped a murder conviction because of the distrust created. 

"oooh what do we do about knife crime it's an epidemic" - yeah has been for years now with young kids getting stabbed on nights out and people not happy to let their kids go into town.  Maybe approach charging and sentencing for knife carrying in the same was that you approached people rioting. Fast, punitive and public. 

[Hafnia]

29 minutes ago, Matt said:

In their defence I can see where both of them were coming from. It's not always as clear as you think mate and not everyone can connect the dots. Personally I thought LBs posts were well put and thought out as have yours. Even Palfy has gotten someone to write mostly coherent posts! My head has a hard time to find the dots sometimes, but this discussion has for the most part been quite balanced and respectful, which is a credit to all considering the subject matter. But neither LB not Palfy are trying to get at you, there's nothing there to disappoint. They've been, as I read it, trying to join dots and that's causing frustration. But they/we have to ask if the debate is to go anywhere and I've "enjoyed" watching TT be so mature around the topic considering it's seriousness and sensitivity. Keep it up folks

 

LB misrepresented or didn't understand that the CPS could and should have been made to make a charge decision on the Manchester airport - the ex chief superintendent was quite clear on his video interview that should have been the case. As I have since been told by others in the know. His last post to me on this thread needs no reposting - cheap, inappropriate and childish. 
 

my stance on this whole topic is that inequality/disproportionate/two tier is the driver behind all the anger I believe.  The dickheads now serving time I will lose no sleep over - if you can't do a peaceful protest then you are scum. 

my concern is that this government isn't fair. Be hard, measured, zero tolerance - go for it, but do not start treating some with zero tolerance and not others.  Letting 10000 prisoners out early due to no space .... yet they are acting like we've got cells everywhere waiting for more offenders.   Get building prisons ffs and clean the country up and get these young offenders doing national service and leave the kids who want a good education get good schooling and a pathway to a good life. 
 

thats all there is to say on the matter.

[Matt]

I really don't know why you have an issue with LB, his posts were very well put together. It seems to me you're seeing things that aren't there.

As for knowing someone vs someone who lives and has lived the police, it's not the same thing and a complex topic doesn't help. Trying to conduct a sensible conversation on a highly emotional and tricky subject is near impossible in a few posts so a bit of leeway when reading the posts is a must. I was going to ask my brother in law, he's got 20 years in Merseyside PD but he's a bit busy at the moment so let's see

I'm with you on pretty much all of this but I do think you've misinterpreted things as digs rather just honest questions. 

[patto]

I’ve watched lots of video this morning regarding the riots and non riots the conclusion I’ve come to is if we want to stop the violence at these demonstrations we need to pass a law to restrict people from wearing face masks. 
the 2 videos that bothered me most were the L7 one in Liverpool and Croydon. 
L7 there was no Demo because the so called far right didn’t bother to take the bait. 
but those there were there hoping for confrontation it was all about Palestine there were people all with face masks on and to me looked very dangerous people all dressed in black. 
Croydon was entirely the opposite nothing to do with Palestine all to do with wanting to cause trouble and I think loot shops but the police didn’t give them a chance but the ones who wanted to cause trouble were all masked up they looked as though they they were just bored and wanted some excitement. 
I fear there has been so many migrants bussed into Liverpool and nobody really knows who they are I can see major problems in the future. 
as you all know I’ve been worried about this for years now and it seems to be coming to fruition sad sad days. 

[StevO]

Who is bussing migrants into Liverpool?

For reference about Palestine. There have been freedom marches in Liverpool for months, with no violence. I was there with my three year old a few weeks back. No trouble, peaceful. No fighting. Not even an argument. Just people asking for an end to war. Not a balaclava in sight. 

[Matt]

49 minutes ago, patto said:

I’ve watched lots of video this morning regarding the riots and non riots the conclusion I’ve come to is if we want to stop the violence at these demonstrations we need to pass a law to restrict people from wearing face masks. 
the 2 videos that bothered me most were the L7 one in Liverpool and Croydon. 
L7 there was no Demo because the so called far right didn’t bother to take the bait. 
but those there were there hoping for confrontation it was all about Palestine there were people all with face masks on and to me looked very dangerous people all dressed in black. 
Croydon was entirely the opposite nothing to do with Palestine all to do with wanting to cause trouble and I think loot shops but the police didn’t give them a chance but the ones who wanted to cause trouble were all masked up they looked as though they they were just bored and wanted some excitement. 
I fear there has been so many migrants bussed into Liverpool and nobody really knows who they are I can see major problems in the future. 
as you all know I’ve been worried about this for years now and it seems to be coming to fruition sad sad days. 

Which immigrants? Considering the issue is apparently with illegal immigration, which represents roughly 3% of actual immigration, all the rest are screened and approved by the government services... So out of the 90k a year, and with riots all over claiming theyre overwhelmed with troublesome immigrants, where are they all coming from? Immigration is complex but it's not quantum physics, immigrants can only be in 1 place at a time and not many depending on who's looking.

[Palfy]

1 hour ago, Hafnia said:

Maybe approach charging and sentencing for knife carrying in the same was that you approached people rioting. Fast, punitive and public. 

Definitely not maybe, but every case brought to court is judged on it’s own merits, and what OJ has to do with violent racist thugs getting prison sentences for their crimes is beyond me. 
It doesn’t make it wrong to sentence people for committing crimes and those sentences shouldn’t be based on failings of the past, hopefully what’s happening now will set a precedent to all in the future that this country will not tolerate the sort of thuggery and violent racism we have seen from anyone. 
And the more people that get sentenced to time in prison the more it will have the desired effect, and then maybe the bigger people can discuss and debate their views, opinions and issues without the threat and fear of violence leading the debate. Lock em up they deserve it. 

[patto]

37 minutes ago, StevO said:

Who is bussing migrants into Liverpool?

For reference about Palestine. There have been freedom marches in Liverpool for months, with no violence. I was there with my three year old a few weeks back. No trouble, peaceful. No fighting. Not even an argument. Just people asking for an end to war. Not a balaclava in sight. 

Whoever transports the immigrants around the country I presume it’s all done by immigration. 
just last week they dropped a bus load in Liverpool the hotels are absolutely full and have been for a couple of years. 
I’ve pointed out just 2 videos by all means have a look. 

[Hafnia]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

I really don't know why you have an issue with LB, his posts were very well put together. It seems to me you're seeing things that aren't there.

As for knowing someone vs someone who lives and has lived the police, it's not the same thing and a complex topic doesn't help. Trying to conduct a sensible conversation on a highly emotional and tricky subject is near impossible in a few posts so a bit of leeway when reading the posts is a must. I was going to ask my brother in law, he's got 20 years in Merseyside PD but he's a bit busy at the moment so let's see

I'm with you on pretty much all of this but I do think you've misinterpreted things as digs rather just honest questions. 

Missing my point about his last post where he tries to tell me he will pray for my anger and refer to my posts as being anti immigration. 

Im not angry I'm passionate, i hope to be humble enough to be able to pray for my own short comings rather than sanctimoniously point out who needs my prayers. I don't think a person of faith needs to bring prayers into an argument to try and gain moral high ground. 
 

im a second generation immigrant - my family suffered greatly due to working conditions they had to encounter post war. I don't need someone who doesn't know me to assume that they know my views well enough to label me. 

[Matt]

11 minutes ago, Hafnia said:

Missing my point about his last post where he tries to tell me he will pray for my anger and refer to my posts as being anti immigration. 

Im not angry I'm passionate, i hope to be humble enough to be able to pray for my own short comings rather than sanctimoniously point out who needs my prayers. I don't think a person of faith needs to bring prayers into an argument to try and gain moral high ground. 
 

im a second generation immigrant - my family suffered greatly due to working conditions they had to encounter post war. I don't need someone who doesn't know me to assume that they know my views well enough to label me. 

It can come across as anger though mate. The anti immigration bit I really have missed, that would definitely be a misinterpretation.

[Matt]

13 minutes ago, patto said:

Whoever transports the immigrants around the country I presume it’s all done by immigration. 
just last week they dropped a bus load in Liverpool the hotels are absolutely full and have been for a couple of years. 
I’ve pointed out just 2 videos by all means have a look. 

So it's legal immigrants that you have an issue with then? I'm confused. Because the only immigrants being bussed around to their temporary (theoretically) accommodation are the ones who have followed the process. 

[Hafnia]

28 minutes ago, Palfy said:

Definitely not maybe, but every case brought to court is judged on it’s own merits, and what OJ has to do with violent racist thugs getting prison sentences for their crimes is beyond me. 
It doesn’t make it wrong to sentence people for committing crimes and those sentences shouldn’t be based on failings of the past, hopefully what’s happening now will set a precedent to all in the future that this country will not tolerate the sort of thuggery and violent racism we have seen from anyone. 
And the more people that get sentenced to time in prison the more it will have the desired effect, and then maybe the bigger people can discuss and debate their views, opinions and issues without the threat and fear of violence leading the debate. Lock em up they deserve it. 

 

do you not understand that perceived injustices create ripple effects? Do you not understand the history of the LA riots - what started them and indeed how they impacted OJ Simpson actually avoiding conviction? - I'm not talking to an 8 year old. 

If I need to explain this to you then I'm wasting my time. On two occasions now you've tried to debunk a point based on "what has that got to do with...." either gaslighting me or you just don't get it. 

[Hafnia]

6 minutes ago, Matt said:

It can come across as anger though mate. The anti immigration bit I really have missed, that would definitely be a misinterpretation.

Straight talking isn't anger any more than passive aggression is light hearted banter. 

[patto]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

So it's legal immigrants that you have an issue with then? I'm confused. Because the only immigrants being bussed around to their temporary (theoretically) accommodation are the ones who have followed the process. 

Matt your missing the point I don’t know who gives you your figures are you saying 90k are illegal ?

as far as I can see there is no illegals any more they step off the boats and are rubber stamped and bussed up north. 
they have no ID nobody knows who they are.