Weirdness Abounds (or the Idrissa Gana Gueye Thread)

[Gwlad]

If move is on at end of season can't see he'll bust a gut for us now unfortunately.

[MikeO]

10 minutes ago, Gwlad all over said:

If move is on at end of season can't see he'll bust a gut for us now unfortunately.

I disagree, I don't think it's in his nature to not give 100%. Just my opinion, time will tell.

[Newty82]

23 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Are you coming out as a tramsexual?

Might aswell. Always been a bit tramsgender.

[MikeO]

Can you gauge your issues. 

[Palfy]

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of weeks it could be normal service resumes, or he could throw his dummy out the pram, if he does then walks back into the team Silva risks losing the dressing room.

[Quinn31]

1 hour ago, MikeO said:

Are you coming out as a tramsexual?

Is that how John Burns identifies?

[pete0]

5 hours ago, nogs said:

Do you even watch football? Fuck me you talk some crap. So now the guy who 'collects the ball from the defence' is the definition of a defensive midfielder? You don't think the word 'defensive' gives a slight clue as to what their role would be?? 

When we have the ball and Gomes collects it from defence what's his role? 

What other teams play with two DM's? 

5 hours ago, Newty82 said:

Listen. All 'bants' and 'bullshit' aside, he's been a fuckin good player for us who we've been able to rely on during some of our most frustrating seasons of recent times.

No. He's not 'World Class'. Neither are 99.9% of the world's Pro players. But he's been there for us throughout a revolving door of managers and players. He's been a mainstay from day 1. No one in any other outfield position has been.

Probs the reason for the revolving door. After 4 managers and no change surely it's time to look at the players. 

[nyblue23]

3 hours ago, pete0 said:

When we have the ball and Gomes collects it from defence what's his role? 

What other teams play with two DM's? 

Probs the reason for the revolving door. After 4 managers and no change surely it's time to look at the players. 

So now Gana is the reason that all the personnel around him keeps changing. Beautiful. Every time I think you can’t dig deeper to find something more absurd...

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/idrissa-gueye-analytics-saw-everton-15763996

[nogs]

6 hours ago, pete0 said:

When we have the ball and Gomes collects it from defence what's his role? 

What other teams play with two DM's? 

First point - when the other team has the ball, what's his role? 

Second point - Liverpool frequently play with two more defensively minded midfielders. Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Keita, even Milner are all used to protect and press to give license to the front three. 

Sarri famously plays both Jorgino and Kate and would probably be better off not trying to press Kante forward and asking him to do a job he's not suited to. 

Spurs over the past few years have regularly played Dembele and Dier together. I don't agree but by your definition Dembele is a 'defensive midfielder' because he likes to sit deep and play out from the back. 

Likewise the last three Man Utd managers have played Herrera and Fellaini together, again two midfielders who like to play deeper. 

The thing is Pete, your claim that Gana 'isn'tt a DM, he' s a CM and the worst in the league' is nonsense because there's no difference between a CM and a DM really. Or put it another way - there's no difference between a DM and a CM whose main strengths and key contributions to the team are defensive. That's all it means. And whatever else you say, Gana does more to protect the back four than any other player at the club. You can try to argue black is white and say that's not true, but we've all seen the stats and watched it with our own eyes. So why not have a break hey and actually get behind a lad who has worn the blue shirt week in, week out for the past three seasons? Because there are players I don't think are good enough but I don't feel the need to constantly single them out for completely over the top and unfair criticism every single fucking day just to try to prove some bizarre point. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/marco-silva-backs-idrissa-gueye-15767648

[pete0]

14 hours ago, nyblue23 said:

So now Gana is the reason that all the personnel around him keeps changing. Beautiful. Every time I think you can’t dig deeper to find something more absurd...

We've been through four managers, so you not think it's time to look at the players? 

Looking at the players there's one mainstay in midfield. The same midfield that has been danced all over the past three seasons. No coincidence. 

[pete0]

10 hours ago, nogs said:

First point - when the other team has the ball, what's his role? 

Second point - Liverpool frequently play with two more defensively minded midfielders. Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Keita, even Milner are all used to protect and press to give license to the front three. 

Sarri famously plays both Jorgino and Kate and would probably be better off not trying to press Kante forward and asking him to do a job he's not suited to. 

Spurs over the past few years have regularly played Dembele and Dier together. I don't agree but by your definition Dembele is a 'defensive midfielder' because he likes to sit deep and play out from the back. 

Likewise the last three Man Utd managers have played Herrera and Fellaini together, again two midfielders who like to play deeper. 

The thing is Pete, your claim that Gana 'isn'ttt a DM, he' s a CM and the worst in the league' is nonsense because there's no difference between a CM and a DM really. Or put it another way - there's no difference between a DM and a CM whose main strengths and key contributions to the team are defensive. That's all it means. And whatever else you say, Gana does more to protect the back four than any other player at the club. You can try to argue black is white and say that's not true, but we've all seen the stats and watched it with our own eyes. So why not have a break hey and actually get behind a lad who has worn the blue shirt week in, week out for the past three seasons? Because there are players I don't think are good enough but I don't feel the need to constantly single them out for completely over the top and unfair criticism every single fucking day just to try to prove some bizarre point. 

Kante has been asked to play further forwards. 

I'd take both Fellaini and Herrara to replace Gana as the CM. 

[Bailey]

13 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/idrissa-gueye-analytics-saw-everton-15763996

That article is awful. Wrong in quite a lot of areas and misleading in many others. 

10 hours ago, nogs said:

First point - when the other team has the ball, what's his role? 

Second point - Liverpool frequently play with two more defensively minded midfielders. Henderson, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Keita, even Milner are all used to protect and press to give license to the front three. 

Sarri famously plays both Jorgino and Kate and would probably be better off not trying to press Kante forward and asking him to do a job he's not suited to. 

Spurs over the past few years have regularly played Dembele and Dier together. I don't agree but by your definition Dembele is a 'defensive midfielder' because he likes to sit deep and play out from the back. 

Likewise the last three Man Utd managers have played Herrera and Fellaini together, again two midfielders who like to play deeper. 

The thing is Pete, your claim that Gana 'isn'ttt a DM, he' s a CM and the worst in the league' is nonsense because there's no difference between a CM and a DM really. Or put it another way - there's no difference between a DM and a CM whose main strengths and key contributions to the team are defensive. That's all it means. And whatever else you say, Gana does more to protect the back four than any other player at the club. You can try to argue black is white and say that's not true, but we've all seen the stats and watched it with our own eyes. So why not have a break hey and actually get behind a lad who has worn the blue shirt week in, week out for the past three seasons? Because there are players I don't think are good enough but I don't feel the need to constantly single them out for completely over the top and unfair criticism every single fucking day just to try to prove some bizarre point. 

The definition of a DM (or any other position) will largely depend on what you want from the person playing that position. Like you say Jorginho's way of playing that role will vary a lot compared to the way Gana would play it, or Fellaini or Neves or whoever you want. 

Gana plays alonside another midfielder who is asked to play in a very similar way. He is expected to do his defensive duties as well as contribute to our play going forward. He isnt just there to defend. In terms of contributing going forward he has his moments but its generally not his strong point. Defensively he is a good at some things and not so good at others. 1 v 1 he is great, he covers lots of ground but then he gets attracted to the ball and isnt what I would call an intelligent defender. In the role he has played most regularly for us, I think you need a more rounded player. He is by no means the worst CM in the league or anything along those lines but in the same breath there are a fair amount of other midfielders I would have ahead of him in that role in the league.

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Kante has been asked to play further forwards. 

I'd take both Fellaini and Herrara to replace Gana as the CM. 

Ye but Kante is clearly the type of player you hate. He gives away way more opportunities a match than Gana does in five games. Last match I watched he gave two clear chances in the first five minutes, that actually ended up with one target chances.

Yet still stats said he’s gave away one all season haha. He must be your worst nightmare!

[Shukes]

Why are we still doing this? We’re actually arguing about cold hard solid facts. 

He could score a hat trick and we would be told it’s not true, and that stats skew your view! That really he didn’t even score one!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

30 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Why are we still doing this? We’re actually arguing about cold hard solid facts. 

He could score a hat trick and we would be told it’s not true, and that stats skew your view! That really he didn’t even score one!

Yep your right, the facts keep piling up and yet continue to be ignored. If the sun was splitting the flags and you said good morning to Pete he would tell you it was midnight and convince himself it was pitch black outside . I think I  will try and swerve this thread for a while for my own sanity

[Bailey]

2 hours ago, Shukes said:

Why are we still doing this? We’re actually arguing about cold hard solid facts. 

He could score a hat trick and we would be told it’s not true, and that stats skew your view! That really he didn’t even score one!

What about if the hat trick came from 20 clear cut chances? 

Surely you would agree that stats should be used in context?

 

[Shukes]

8 hours ago, Bailey said:

What about if the hat trick came from 20 clear cut chances? 

Surely you would agree that stats should be used in context?

 

Of course, 3 goals from 20 efforts would be an excellent return from a striker let alone a defensive midfielder. 

This is where our strikers aren’t on top level yet, they only seem to shoot when we have clear opportunities. Top goal scorers agoitbas aoon as they have chance. Look at kane, he has four shots before he gets on on target, but the sheet fact he shoots the second he gets chance makes him very dangerous.

Would be interesting to find his goal to effort ratio wouldn’t it

[Hafnia]

14 hours ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Yep your right, the facts keep piling up and yet continue to be ignored. If the sun was splitting the flags and you said good morning to Pete he would tell you it was midnight and convince himself it was pitch black outside . I think I  will try and swerve this thread for a while for my own sanity

When someone says Gana is the worst footballer to play for Everton bar non and resolutely sticks to that ridiculous comment then you know it's time to step away... not many of us did though. 

[pete0]

15 hours ago, Shukes said:

Ye but Kante is clearly the type of player you hate. He gives away way more opportunities a match than Gana does in five games. Last match I watched he gave two clear chances in the first five minutes, that actually ended up with one target chances.

Yet still stats said he’s gave away one all season haha. He must be your worst nightmare!

Kante reads the game and covers space a lot better than Gana. This year he's been asked to do a different role (the same as Gana) that he's not well suited to. 

[Bailey]

4 hours ago, Shukes said:

Of course, 3 goals from 20 efforts would be an excellent return from a striker let alone a defensive midfielder. 

This is where our strikers aren’t on top level yet, they only seem to shoot when we have clear opportunities. Top goal scorers agoitbas aoon as they have chance. Look at kane, he has four shots before he gets on on target, but the sheet fact he shoots the second he gets chance makes him very dangerous.

Would be interesting to find his goal to effort ratio wouldn’t it

If you think 3 goals from 20 clear cut chances is good, you must love our strikers

[Matt]

27 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Kante reads the game and covers space a lot better than Gana. This year he's been asked to do a different role (the same as Gana) that he's not well suited to. 

So you accept that the manager can have an impact on players performances due to tactics?

13 minutes ago, Bailey said:

If you think 3 goals from 20 clear cut chances is good, you must love our strikers

Efforts and clear cut chances are very different things mate

[pete0]

16 minutes ago, Matt said:

So you accept that the manager can have an impact on players performances due to tactics?

 

To a point. Player still has to take responsibility too. Atm Sigurdssen is being asked to do a job that doesn't suit his strengths so I'd put more blame on the manager in his case but if there is a game were he has an absolute stinker that's on him not the manager. 

Don't see the relevance for Gana though he's played the same position/role since being here. 

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, pete0 said:

Kante reads the game and covers space a lot better than Gana. This year he's been asked to do a different role (the same as Gana) that he's not well suited to. 

Ye it could be that. In his role this year he seems to be giving away far to many chances. Still an excellent player though, and one Gana should be looking at and aiming for his level. 

[Shukes]

1 hour ago, Bailey said:

If you think 3 goals from 20 clear cut chances is good, you must love our strikers

Clear cut chances are a world away from efforts. 

Edit: Matt beat me to it.

[Bailey]

48 minutes ago, Matt said:

So you accept that the manager can have an impact on players performances due to tactics?

Efforts and clear cut chances are very different things mate

 

2 minutes ago, Shukes said:

Clear cut chances are a world away from efforts. 

Edit: Matt beat me to it.

My first post said clear cut chances. 

[Matt]

Just now, Bailey said:

 

My first post said clear cut chances. 

Missed that bit, my bad

[Shukes]

7 minutes ago, Bailey said:

 

My first post said clear cut chances. 

If our striker ever has 20 clear cut chances in a match I’ll buy you your next ticket, pint, pie and a new shirt.

[Bailey]

2 minutes ago, Shukes said:

If our striker ever has 20 clear cut chances in a match I’ll buy you your next ticket, pint, pie and a new shirt.

I'll remember that

The point is that a player scoring a hattrick sounds great but a player scoring 3 goals from 3 chances is much better than a player scoring 3 goals from 20 clear cut chances.

Stats like tackles, interceptions, passes completed give a glimpse of a players ability but they dont tell the full story. For example, as a team we made 1 less tackle compared to the Southampton game but made 2 more interceptions compared to the Southampton game.  That doesnt mean anything on its own because there are lots of other variables but if Gana was the machine being made out you would expect the stats from the Huddersfield game to be far worse, when the truth is that others pick up the slack.