Palfy Posted February 20, 2018 Report Share Posted February 20, 2018 Who ever banged first doesn't concern me one bit that's incidental, what I find more worrying is the lack of ambition and believe that we can't attract far better players than him to the club. In the 18 months he's been here he hasn't improved us in fact I would go as far as too say it's been quite the reverse, if we are pinning our future on Gana to be a big player in this league then the future looks bleak, he is a bang on average player not the super star most think he is. Sibdane, nyblue23, MikeO and 4 others 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 It's been an interesting discussion, and I've bitten my tongue on this one - but I can't resist any longer. The role of DM is perhaps the most important of all for the team, yet DMs are too often underrated and misunderstood. The little things they do, constantly, are too often missed, overlooked, or not appreciated. My favourite DM on our team is McCarthy - an invaluable player yet an underrated one. Gana may not be the best DM in the league, but it's very unfair to claim he's useless. Schneiderlin? I'd agree. But Gana? He does much more than he's given credit for. I was really looking forward to seeing him build a partnership with McCarthy, but injury appears to have prevented that from happening. Remember how Barry (an excellent holding midfielder) and McCarthy bossed games? They were a very strong partnership. Gana's worth will become evident when our manager stops dinking around with the team and provides Gana with a consistent partner to grow alongside. nyblue23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said: It's been an interesting discussion, and I've bitten my tongue on this one - but I can't resist any longer. The role of DM is perhaps the most important of all for the team, yet DMs are too often underrated and misunderstood. The little things they do, constantly, are too often missed, overlooked, or not appreciated. My favourite DM on our team is McCarthy - an invaluable player yet an underrated one. Gana may not be the best DM in the league, but it's very unfair to claim he's useless. Schneiderlin? I'd agree. But Gana? He does much more than he's given credit for. I was really looking forward to seeing him build a partnership with McCarthy, but injury appears to have prevented that from happening. Remember how Barry (an excellent holding midfielder) and McCarthy bossed games? They were a very strong partnership. Gana's worth will become evident when our manager stops dinking around with the team and provides Gana with a consistent partner to grow alongside. I do, and that's the standard we should be aiming for. Gana and Schneiderlin aren't even close. Gana and McCarthy play centre mid. Schneiderlein and Barry Defensive. How big the gap is in quality is disgraceful, Walsh and Koeman killed the midfield. Don't think any side gets done down the middle as easy as us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 It's been an interesting discussion, and I've bitten my tongue on this one - but I can't resist any longer. The role of DM is perhaps the most important of all for the team, yet DMs are too often underrated and misunderstood. The little things they do, constantly, are too often missed, overlooked, or not appreciated. My favourite DM on our team is McCarthy - an invaluable player yet an underrated one. Gana may not be the best DM in the league, but it's very unfair to claim he's useless. Schneiderlin? I'd agree. But Gana? He does much more than he's given credit for. I was really looking forward to seeing him build a partnership with McCarthy, but injury appears to have prevented that from happening. Remember how Barry (an excellent holding midfielder) and McCarthy bossed games? They were a very strong partnership. Gana's worth will become evident when our manager stops dinking around with the team and provides Gana with a consistent partner to grow alongside.I don’t think he is underrated really, the vast majority of fans can see what he does and the people who really matter obviously rate him to give him a new 5 year dealI know stats don’t tell the whole story but the fact he made the most tackles in the Premiership last season and is second this season surely indicates that he is doing his job wellAnd if that’s not enough I would take the fact PeteO doesn’t rate him as all the proof you need that he is a quality player [emoji12] Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 His job is a breaker up of play.... He does that. He can be a bit of a headless chicken at times but that's been mainly when he's partnering snide.... with Rooney and Davies he looks the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 When we probably are one of the poorest teams in the league when it comes to possession of the ball, I would expect his stats on tackles made to be number one by a substantial distance if he's that good. On the basis he has more opportunities to make a lot more tackles than most midfielders in other teams because the opposition dominate possession against us he's not doing that well in my eyes, also when he does make a tackle is he retaining the ball and hurting the opposition with his talent of picking out classy passes, no he isn'tt is the simple answer why because he hasn't got the ability or vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Palfy said: When we probably are one of the poorest teams in the league when it comes to possession of the ball, I would expect his stats on tackles made to be number one by a substantial distance if he's that good. He was, as dunc said, number one in the league last season when we were far from one of the poorest teams. How do you explain that anomaly in your argument? You can use it for this (even though I disagree) but it doesn't work for last year, makes no sense. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 13 minutes ago, MikeO said: He was, as dunc said, number one in the league last season when we were far from one of the poorest teams. How do you explain that anomaly in your argument? You can use it for this (even though I disagree) but it doesn't work for last year, makes no sense. Extremely poor positional sense. Makes tackles when he should be shadowing them away from goal. Might still the tackle but the loose ball is anyone's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, MikeO said: He was, as dunc said, number one in the league last season when we were far from one of the poorest teams. How do you explain that anomaly in your argument? You can use it for this (even though I disagree) but it doesn't work for last year, makes no sense. It does we were poor for long spells last season and won a fair amount of games where we were second best. Some of you actually believe he was better than Kante because he made a few tackles more than Kante last season, but what you fail to take into account is that Kante did it in a team that dominated possession in most of there games so had far less opportunities to get his count up. Now I don't really take a lot of stock in stats especially when you pit one player against another because you can't replicate the same playing scenarios, but besides all that Gana is no Kante that's as daft as saying Niasse is as good as Aguero Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 Ah the art of tackling without tackling.... I think that's called making them pass to someone else till they either misplace the pass or have a shot on goal.... I think some of the best goals I've seen were by teams against opponents who did the whole "close down and make them pass" bollocks. Ever seen Carlos Alberto and his wonder goal vs Italy and their "jockey don't tackle" nonsense. Yep.... Newty82 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 14 minutes ago, pete0 said: Extremely poor positional sense. Makes tackles when he should be shadowing them away from goal. Might still the tackle but the loose ball is anyone's. 7 minutes ago, Palfy said: It does we were poor for long spells last season and won a fair amount of games where we were second best. Some of you actually believe he was better than Kante because he made a few tackles more than Kante last season, but what you fail to take into account is that Kante did it in a team that dominated possession in most of there games so had far less opportunities to get his count up. Now I don't really take a lot of stock in stats especially when you pit one player against another because you can't replicate the same playing scenarios, but besides all that Gana is no Kante that's as daft as saying Niasse is as good as Aguero Night night guys, snuggle up together for warmth would be my advice, then you can join the Flat Earth Society together in the morning. nyblue23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 21, 2018 Report Share Posted February 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, hafnia said: Ah the art of tackling without tackling.... I think that's called making them pass to someone else till they either misplace the pass or have a shot on goal.... I think some of the best goals I've seen were by teams against opponents who did the whole "close down and make them pass" bollocks. Ever seen Carlos Alberto and his wonder goal vs Italy and their "jockey don't tackle" nonsense. Yep.... Tell me more about all these clean sheets we've kept with him. How come McCarthy and Barry didn't takle as much yet were a better midfield. No team gets cut down the middle like us. It's embarrassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 The problem is a lot of you see a player just through stats not by what he or where he should be, me advice to you statistician supporters is to actually watch him then you might see the weaknesses he has and there a plenty. Keeps getting on the wrong side of his man. Wanders out of position constantly. Has know vision when he has the ball. Just follows the ball like a 6 year-old aimlessly. Gives away free kicks in dangerous areas trying to make tackles because he's got himself completely wrong side of the man he's marking panic defending. I could go on and on but it's as boring as watching him on the pitch. And only thing you stato's can come up is his tackles count like I said early not very hard to achieve that he has more opportunities than most. I remember Frazier Digby keeper for Swindon when they were in the premiere league conceded the most goals that season, but also so had the most saves as well not hard to understand that when on average most teams had double figure shots on target, same for Gana he makes tackles but better players in a team that performs like we are would make a hell of a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 I do watch him, for once I've not bothered checking the stats because I don't really need to. He harries, he puts a foot in, he causes the opposition to rush and panic. He's also acting alone in the central midfield a lot of the time, and that's a lot of ground to cover. If the rest of the team put as much effort as he did, and did their individual roles as well as him, we'd be a lot more comfortable in the league than we are. Maybe not top 4, but certainly better off. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post c1982 Posted February 22, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 He’s a component who, when used correctly, makes us a better team. Last season, in a midfield with Schneiderlin (remember him?!), Davies and Barkley he was able to do his job effectively - he’s not a player who will stand out to most as he’s not going to score 10+ goals a season or assist many either. This season has been much harder but we’ve now found that alongside Davies and Rooney, he can be effective again. I’m aware of stats but judge purely on what I see - I go to or watch every game and watch all BT/Sky games involving other teams - in my opinion, he’s an essential component to EFC progressing. Kante gets all the plaudits as has Makelle previously but watch Kante in a midfield alongside Bakayoko - it doesn’t work! I was watching Ray Parlour talk about how Wenger used players like Viera, Petit and Gilberto, etc and he was says how they need to work like pistons - when one presses, the other drops in behind and vice versa - I’d say, for the most part, Gana is doing his job - maybe we just haven’t found (or stuck with) the right partner for him yet. Newty82, MikeO, Matt and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 9 hours ago, pete0 said: Tell me more about all these clean sheets we've kept with him. How come McCarthy and Barry didn't takle as much yet were a better midfield. No team gets cut down the middle like us. It's embarrassing. No... let's not change the subject from your "he's clearly shit as he makes loads of tackles" bollocks.... All stemming from maldinis "if I have to make a tackle I've ready made a mistake" pretentious bullshit. Maldini made shit loads of tackles and they weren't because of his mistakes. He's basically stating that his man shouldnt be able to receive the ball for him to require him to tackle him. Doesn't work like that. And you well know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shukes Posted February 22, 2018 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Palfy, with all due respect. There aren’t a lot of people on this forum that make their opinion from stats. Some use stats to back up those points, but don’t confuse that with using stats to base an opinion. Just because others don’t see it your way, doesnt mean are statos. You could be just as wrong as you think they are. I know that I don’t use stats as a basis for opinion. I base mine on what I see by watching teams and players. Gana does make mistakes. He can be rash. He can wander, a lot. But he also works hard. He has bite. He breaks up play. He feeds other players and does their donkey work. I also question the point made by you two that he can’t play a ball forward. I watch him regularly and he is always linking defence and attack. They may not be defence splitting passes, but they are simple and effective, get the ball, turn and put a simple ten yard pass forward... which a lot of our players seem to struggle with. He does have his faults, but his positives far outweigh them for me. Matt, Newty82, MikeO and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 The context of Maldinis comment was going to ground by the way. There is a huge difference in making a tackle by harrying .. Ala Gana... and going to ground to make a tackle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 hours ago, hafnia said: No... let's not change the subject from your "he's clearly shit as he makes loads of tackles" bollocks.... All stemming from maldinis "if I have to make a tackle I've ready made a mistake" pretentious bullshit. Maldini made shit loads of tackles and they weren't because of his mistakes. He's basically stating that his man shouldnt be able to receive the ball for him to require him to tackle him. Doesn't work like that. And you well know it. I know how it works and that's why I know Gana is shite at a defending. He takles so much as he's out of position and usually in the wrong side of his man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, pete0 said: I know how it works and that's why I know Gana is shite at a defending. He takles so much as he's out of position and usually in the wrong side of his man. So how else do you propose he dispossess his opponent? You are aware that he has a ridiculous number of interceptions as well as tackles aren't you? markjazzbassist and Matt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, hafnia said: So how else do you propose he dispossess his opponent? You are aware that he has a ridiculous number of interceptions as well as tackles aren't you? Standing in front of them would be a good start. Cut off the options and force an error. Not let them get behind before reacting to the danger and having to make a tackle. That's why he has the most, because he's never in position and is constantly having to make up for it. You occupy the right space and you'll make it easier for your teammate to pick it off. He gets all the glory for these takles yet his teammates get hung out to dry thanks to him. Nuts. How many of these takles are from behind? I bet he's king of that stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 pete are you one of those pep/koeman types that believes a perfect game involves no tackles because "they are not needed if you have good positioning". i'm not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, markjazzbassist said: pete are you one of those pep/koeman types that believes a perfect game involves no tackles because "they are not needed if you have good positioning". i'm not. More Mourinho. Goals come from mistakes, Gana wouldn't see a minute in his sides. Most important role in the team. Look at the gulf in class between us as a team when McCarthy was back. I think McCarthy is quality but you shouldn't notice one players return so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 Great the majority think he's the player that can take us places the player that any team chasing the league and trophies would want in their team. I wonder if that's what Villa fans thought when they signed him, if he's really the best we've got or good enough to be one of the first names on the team sheet we will always be closer to fourth from bottom than fourth from top in margin of points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 31 minutes ago, Palfy said: Great the majority think he's the player that can take us places the player that any team chasing the league and trophies would want in their team. I wonder if that's what Villa fans thought when they signed him, if he's really the best we've got or good enough to be one of the first names on the team sheet we will always be closer to fourth from bottom than fourth from top in margin of points. Apart from last season, the only full season he's played for us when we were fourteen points off 4th and twenty-one points off fourth from bottom. That aside you're totally correct, our poor current position is totally down to him the useless bastard. Matt and nyblue23 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, MikeO said: Apart from last season, the only full season he's played for us when we were fourteen points off 4th and twenty-one points off fourth from bottom. That aside you're totally correct, our poor current position is totally down to him the useless bastard. Still a poor show which will be a lot worse the end of this season. I'm not calling him shit I'm saying he's not good enough to take this club were we want to go, he's not good enough for any team in this league that have ambitions to get to the top. I know it's not his fault he's here it's down to that discoverer of great players Walsh, if you think he's the future the sort of player that's going to take us to the top then great you've got your man, I don't I'm sure he will never be part of an Everton team that gets into the top four. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Palfy said: ....if he's really the best we've got or good enough to be one of the first names on the team sheet we will always be closer to fourth from bottom than fourth from top in margin of points. My point was just that (opinions aside) the above comment was 100% inaccurate, and I'd hate to have to lump you in with Tory politicians when it comes to "spin" Palfy mate; you're better than that. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 11 minutes ago, MikeO said: My point was just that (opinions aside) the above comment was 100% inaccurate, and I'd hate to have to lump you in with Tory politicians when it comes to "spin" Palfy mate; you're better than that. The only thing blue about me is my choice of football team and occasionally my language, definitely without any dispute not my politics. You have sunk to a new low by insinuating I have Tory traits Mike, I'd rather you run me over than say that😂 nyblue23 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, Palfy said: You have sunk to a new low by insinuating I have Tory traits Mike I apologise for that, not suggesting Tory traits for a moment, just making a metaphorical point. It might have been a bit harsh in retrospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palfy Posted February 22, 2018 Report Share Posted February 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, MikeO said: I apologise for that, not suggesting Tory traits for a moment, just making a metaphorical point. It might have been a bit harsh in retrospect. All forgiven😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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