holystove Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Well the EU think its a good idea to organise referenda, they keep having them until they get the result they want. I don't understand why you would say the EU likes referenda; they're purely a national matter. ?? Personally I'm very much against referenda because I believe elected politicians in a representative democracy are much better positioned to decide most issues. You can't run a country on populism. Baba and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/92e518f8-44ad-42d5-aef5-3fe3f355b4fa?intc_type=singletheme&intc_location=threeonline&intc_campaign=threeonline&intc_linkname=article_youngpeople_contentcard35 Only 36% of young people bothered to vote. They let themselves down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I don't understand why you would say the EU likes referenda; they're purely a national matter. ?? Personally I'm very much against referenda because I believe elected politicians in a representative democracy are much better positioned to decide most issues. You can't run a country on populism. Agree completely; what's the point in electing people to represent your opinion (even in an undemocratic system such as ours) and then asking them to consult you on the decisions they make? Mad. Only 36% of young people bothered to vote. They let themselves down. Not arguing with that, they're just the ones who'll have to live with the consequences, good or bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Not arguing with that, they're just the ones who'll have to live with the consequences, good or bad. I have zero sympathy for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I don't understand why you would say the EU likes referenda; they're purely a national matter. ?? Personally I'm very much against referenda because I believe elected politicians in a representative democracy are much better positioned to decide most issues. You can't run a country on populism. holystove, there have been a number of 're-run' referendums in EU countries (eg Ireland) when the original result was against EU's interests. The results were overturned in a second referendum. You are surely not saying that there wasn't considerable EU influence in the decision to have a second referendum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 I have zero sympathy for them. Not suggesting you should; and maybe they won't need any because maybe it will prove to have been the right decision. It's just disappointing that neither side engaged them enough to vote; the two kids that I have within that demographic both did, but probably that's more parental influence than political persuasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Not suggesting you should; and maybe they won't need any because maybe it will prove to have been the right decision. It's just disappointing that neither side engaged them enough to vote; the two kids that I have within that demographic both did, but probably that's more parental influence than political persuasion. The woman who's role it was to improve voting in young people resigned after the referendum didn't she? I think I'm remembering that right. I think it's sad that they need to be encouraged tbh. Any vote is going to impact on them more than most so more of them should be wanting to vote and have a say. A few young people were interviewed at Glastonbury and were moaning about the result and then revealed that they hadn't even voted themselves! I have voted in every election since I've been eligible - local, national, European etc etc. It scrambles my brain that the turnout for elections in general isn't more. Edited June 28, 2016 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 So the Swiss very wisely voted to control immigration, not dismiss immigration all together, but control it. But the EU said 'no no no....you can't do that...we are taking some goodies off you if you do that'. Is it just me, or are those tactics more dictatorial than they are democratic?! And now the UK has voted to leave, the same behaviours are on show. I really have nervous feelings about which direction the EU 'project' is heading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 As do I. War games are being played on the border of Russia, the rush to ascend former Soviet states to EU membership is simply to keep them on "our" side and to stick NATO bases everywhere. I fear the EU is, with it's "ever closer union" heading towards a kind of federal super state. The French seem very keen on this too. I really wanted to be part of a great European Union, I have friends on ths continent who I intend to visit again this year. The Lisbon treaty signed over more 'power', took the EU further away from a trading bloc towards a power bloc. What will the next treaty sign over?! I really hope the UK result makes many people step back and reflect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 The Lisbon treaty signed over more 'power', took the EU further away from a trading bloc towards a power bloc. What will the next treaty sign over?! I really hope the UK result makes many people step back and reflect. Forming a "power bloc" doesn't mean signing over anything; it means forming an alliance. I really hope the UK result makes many people step back and reflect as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) I think there should be a referendum to see if we should have another referendum. ?. Edited June 28, 2016 by Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Forming a "power bloc" doesn't mean signing over anything; it means forming an alliance. I really hope the UK result makes many people step back and reflect as well. Haha....I've no doubt we want different people in different positions to reflect!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Haha....I've no doubt we want different people in different positions to reflect!!! Not at all, I want everyone to reflect. Maybe in five/ten years time, maybe now; I just wish everyone had given it some thought like the authors of 99% of the posts in this thread did. Said before no problem with people voting out because they think it's best for the country. Perhaps they'll be proved right; I think they'll be proved wrong but that's down to no more than instinct and the reasons I've given before about wanting borders to be destroyed rather than being built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Well the EU think its a good idea to organise referenda, they keep having them until they get the result they want. the Swiss one was another national popularity contest between jostling politicians who wanted power, nothing to do with the EU itself. However the decision by the nation meant that they were then forced to challenge agreements made with the EU who turned around and said "fine, but there are agreements we have dependent on you not changing" and so they brought it upon themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Not at all, I want everyone to reflect. Maybe in five/ten years time, maybe now; I just wish everyone had given it some thought like the authors of 99% of the posts in this thread did. Said before no problem with people voting out because they think it's best for the country. Perhaps they'll be proved right; I think they'll be proved wrong but that's down to no more than instinct and the reasons I've given before about wanting borders to be destroyed rather than being built. We both want the same thing Mike. But we have different views on the current 'method'. If only people that matter could stop with all the petty cheap shots, accept it and concentrate on what is needed next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 We both want the same thing Mike. But we have different views on the current 'method'. If only people that matter could stop with all the petty cheap shots, accept it and concentrate on what is needed next. that's the issue though. everyone disagrees on what's needed next. most people - jobs, housing, a decent life. politicians - money, power, hookers, cocaine, sadistic destruction of small people/countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Don't know where to put this. Istanbul has suffered a terrorist attack at the airport Not here; what has Turkey got to do with Brexit? Zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 Not here; what has Turkey got to do with Brexit? Zero. It's Brexit fault!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 that's the issue though. everyone disagrees on what's needed next. most people - jobs, housing, a decent life. politicians - money, power, hookers, cocaine, sadistic destruction of small people/countries. I don't think they've had a chance go talk about what next. It's still in the scare mongering and mud slinging phase! Whatever happens, you can be sure that big business and banks will benefit. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 28, 2016 Report Share Posted June 28, 2016 One thing we really need is a politician who we could vote in as a PM, not someone who gets in cos the other side didn't get enough votes to stop him/her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) So the Swiss very wisely voted to control immigration, not dismiss immigration all together, but control it. But the EU said 'no no no....you can't do that...we are taking some goodies off you if you do that'. Is it just me, or are those tactics more dictatorial than they are democratic?! And now the UK has voted to leave, the same behaviours are on show. I really have nervous feelings about which direction the EU 'project' is heading. There are numerous bilateral treaties that make up the relationship between the EU (as a supranational organisation) and Switzerland (a country). When one party no longer meets obligations on its end, the other party tends to no longer want to meet theirs. How is that anything but normal behaviour? The Swiss held a referendum, because of the result of this referendum, they are in breach of a pre-existing agreements with the EU. The EU then no longer held up its part. You then call the EU a dictator. First of all, a country (or supranational organisation) can't be a dictator over another country. Secondly, a dictatorship means oppressing your own citizens.. The EU was actually protecting the rights of its citizens from unlawful action from the Swiss. -- Also, it's not the EU saying it will be tough on the UK. It's countries like Sweden, The Netherlands, France, Spain, who have all stated the UK shouldn't be expecting any special treatment. Are all of them dictatorships? Edited June 29, 2016 by holystove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 http://www.thelocal.ch/20160628/brexit-voters-misinformed-over-swiss-relations-with-eu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 It never crossed my mind that we needed to be like Switzerland and I'm sure this applies to 99%of the 'leave' voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 It never crossed my mind that we needed to be like Switzerland and I'm sure this applies to 99%of the 'leave' voters.thats not the point, John. It highlights the consequences of changing a relationship with the EU. Pay the same, lose your voice, comply by their rules anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Finally the solution. Hugh Laurie @hughlaurie 6h6 hours ago For Scots' sake: what if the English now had a referendum to leave the UK, so the Scots could retain EU membership? Are we all happy? Actually makes a lot of sense . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 It still amazes me that the only referendum we have ever had on the Union didn't allow votes for the populations of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 It still amazes me that the only referendum we have ever had on the Union didn't allow votes for the populations of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Why does that amaze you when the UK has just held a referendum on leaving the European Union. By that logic the population of all twenty-eight countries should have had a vote on Brexit . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Just a point on the youth who didn't vote in the Swiss immigration... The reason the turnout was so low (according to some of the guys here, trying to find an article) is because they were flat out lied to. They were assured that nothing would change but the number of immigrants allowed, and were not informed of any potential impacts on funding from the EU (mostly because it was unknown) and then largely ignored by the campaign. Therefore, they deemed the vote irrelevant. Hindsight says it was stupid, but if you're naive and young, you tend to go with their advice. Unfortunately that meant being tricked by the government put in place to protect them. Meanwhile, the campaigns concentrated on the isolated cantons (county equivalent) and subsequently the older, retired generations, banging on about the impacts of benefits and pensions. The politicians played the public for their own gain and not for the good of the people. It was a very clever divide and conquer strategy. In contrast, the cantons bordering with other countries, the clear majority of voters wanted to encourage immigration and not limit it, because of the benefit it brings. They lost to a "majority" of people who didn't even have to live with immigrants who were fed fear and lies to trick them. http://www.dw.com/en/swiss-feel-country-is-bursting-at-the-seams/a-17419390 The parallels are very clear Edited June 29, 2016 by Matt holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) Cameron's been rebuffed at the EU meeting over asking about trying to control numbers coming into the country. I agree with Cameron on this one but he's far too late on it. By us they're taking away green belt land to fit in a load high priced shoe boxes for people to live in and house prices are strangling families, and schools are building prefabs to cope with the extra demand. Also pay has been stagnant for a good few years in my job and working conditions deteriorated in other jobs because people are easily replaced. That may be great for the capitalist economy but it's not great for many of us workers on the lower end of the pay scale. But were told hey you've got a job haven't you. You wonder what's the point though when after all your costs you're left with £15 a week to spend on yourself. Hopefully the EU can spend money now on improving the infrastructure of the Eastern European countries people that many are moving from. If they could have sorted that out before hand with the warning signs there for all to see then the remain vote would have been far higher. Edited June 29, 2016 by paul holystove 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 not sure what the big deal is, plenty of countries have left the EU. take a look at greenland for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.