johnh Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 .David Cameron's history is rubbish. Whatever the virtues of remaining in EU his idea that 'whenever we turn our backs on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it' is nonsense. As for Brexit 'raising the risk of war' it is project fear gone mad. From the Guardian website. There has always been an excess of population over property. This is why house prices have increased over the last 60+ years. House prices were going up before Labour's 'open door' policy on immigration (which may have accelerated the increase.) If we stopped immigration all together there would still be a shortage of houses and prices will continue to rise. Osborne is clutching at straws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 .David Cameron's history is rubbish. Whatever the virtues of remaining in EU his idea that 'whenever we turn our backs on Europe, sooner or later we come to regret it' is nonsense. As for Brexit 'raising the risk of war' it is project fear gone mad. From the Guardian website. There has always been an excess of population over property. This is why house prices have increased over the last 60+ years. House prices were going up before Labour's 'open door' policy on immigration (which may have accelerated the increase.) If we stopped immigration all together there would still be a shortage of houses and prices will continue to rise. Osborne is clutching at straws. No evidence of the Cameron WW3 claim I see. Like I said, right wing press headline writer invention. And house prices haven't always increased over the least sixty years; we were in the EU when millions (my brother included) were stuck in negative equity for years. Owning property is always a good idea long term I agree, but it's not risk free in or out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Well the last two World Wars were wars started in Europe, it is difficult to not think the meaning of 'risk of war'' in Europe isn't intended to mean 'World War'. My first house bought in 1959 was 1,750 pounds, I recently looked on a website and saw it had recently been sold for 120,000 pounds. I agree there have been 'blips' along the way but it is a simple law of economics. If there is a demand for scarce goods then the price will rise. (Sorry 'tend' to rise - economics speak!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? "I would never be so rash to make that assumption." Looking at this objectively, it really is a veiled threat. How else could it be viewed? Can you see us going to war with Germany again? On what basis is such a claim justified? Second part if we reduce immigration and therefor population growth demand for houses will inevitably fall; no guarantee whatsoever that house prices will continue to rise, we've had crashes in the past where people have found themselves in negative equity. I think that's likely to happen again if we leave, unless you're lucky enough to be in London/South East. We can't have it all ways. I'm sure there have been shock headlines in the papers about immigrants pushing up home prices, making it difficult for local to buy their own homes. So now there's the chance that house prices might drop, and the argument is that this hurts existing home owners! Talk about selective arguments! MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 So you believe Cameron when he says Brexit could result in World War 3? Well the last two World Wars were wars started in Europe, it is difficult to not think the meaning of 'risk of war'' in Europe isn't intended to mean 'World War'. Contradictory John sorry; you say he said it but then you backtrack because he didn't. Leave campaign in a nutshell, not that the remain side are any better. Daft claims on both sides. Believe nothing and vote on your instinct would be my advice for everyone, but make sure you vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Looking at this objectively, it really is a veiled threat. How else could it be viewed? Can you see us going to war with Germany again? On what basis is such a claim justified? I'm sure he's looking well beyond Germany, Russia or the middle east is the potential threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) I'm sure he's looking well beyond Germany, Russia or the middle east is the potential threat. Why would Brexit contribute to a war with Russia or the middle east? Let's not lose sight of the fact that Cameron's comments were made in the context of Brexit. Edited June 13, 2016 by johnh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 I'm sure he's looking well beyond Germany, Russia or the middle east is the potential threat. What's that got to do with Brexit? Let's not lose sight of the fact that Cameron's comments were made in the context of Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Why would Brexit contribute to a war with Russia or the middle east? Let's not lose sight of the fact that Cameron's comments were made in the context of Brexit. It wouldn't; it's just more likely than a war with Germany. Potential talk of WW3 (which you continue to offer no evidence of Cameron suggesting) doesn't restrict itself to Europe by definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 It wouldn't; it's just more likely than a war with Germany. Potential talk of WW3 (which you continue to offer no evidence of Cameron suggesting) doesn't restrict itself to Europe by definition. Mike, now you're not answering my questions. Why would Brexit contribute to any war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 Mike, now you're not answering my questions. Why would Brexit contribute to any war? I don't think it would. WW3 won't happen either way, nobody outside of the headline writers has said it it wiill. Red herring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 13, 2016 Report Share Posted June 13, 2016 You have lies and statistics on top of scaremongering. I will vote with my heart, and I suspect most people will do the same. So good luck to you all. Matt, Lowensda and MikeO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I woke up this morning to find a piece of paper on the door mat from Labour telling me to vote remain. At least that flyer wasn't paid for with tax payers money, I don't think anyway. I'm pretty sure if WW3 happens it will be to do with Russia or Korea, unless the rest of the EU try to invade Britain if we leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Desperation tactics by Remain, wheeling out has-beens like Major, Blair and Brown has cost it several million votes I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Desperation tactics by Remain, wheeling out has-beens like Major, Blair and Brown has cost it several million votes I reckon. He made a fantastic point regarding the NHS impact though http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-major-nhs-risk-brexit-pythons-johnson-and-gove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x I expect better of the Independent than to come up with clickbait titles, but still Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formby Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 He made a fantastic point regarding the NHS impact though http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/05/john-major-nhs-risk-brexit-pythons-johnson-and-gove Major's comment about disloyalty could also apply to Corbyn, who was serially disloyal to every Labour leader. If we had any kind of effective opposition in this country, calls to vote Remain to protect the NHS would not be needed. How weak and ineffectual a party Labour has become. If they don't like the Eton cabal dismantling the NHS, then they should get their act together. It really is pathetic. Matt and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Corbyn backing Remain after years of being anti-EU is doing Brexit no harm. Asked 'How enthusiastic about the EU are you, on a scale of one to 10?' His answer - 'Seven and a half'. With dynamic endorsements like that, Remain must be home and dry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Old article but... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26088500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!) Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!) Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms. Yes, Steve, exactly my view. The only proviso being - whatever concessions we get must be cast in concrete and incapable of being cancelled or amended by any future treaty change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!) Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms. I was confident the country wouldn't vote the Tory shitbags back for a second term, but there you go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I blame the bad storms we are having on the Remain group. I am sure it is natures way of saying the we .......... oooh look a squirrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I've made up my mind on this, and it took a while to think it through. (Since I can't vote, though, my thoughts carry no weight!) Here's my conclusion: We should vote to LEAVE because it will provide the bargaining power needed to gain substantive concessions from the EU. I understand that more extreme elements (UKIP and the like) will see such a vote as a victory for their cause, but I'm confident the majority of Britons would reject that conclusion and keep them in check. When Britain wins the concessions it wants, then maybe we can choose to remain a part of the EU after all - but more on our terms. I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more). If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off. Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Somebody changed their mind? Must admit I never noticed that, but it proves a point, we are short on genuine facts over the outcome either way. Which is why I will vote with my heart when I get to the polling station. My head is already banjaxed with the nonsensical arguments from both sides. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more). If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off. Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 . You, maybe inadvertently, hit the nail on the head: "I'LL join YOUR club." It's supposed to be OUR club. rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 I really don't see how we can have an, "I'll join your club as long as I don't have to stick to your rules and can have special treatment" attitude (which we already do, but we'll hold our breath until we get more). If I was the EU I'd tell us to fuck off. Edit: Someone's changed their mind because the vote was 18-11 and now it's 17-12 . Well, the rules suit some countries more than others. The obvious example being the euro and Germany and Greece. Germany are getting 'special treatment' because the euro is effectively a German currency. Might as well change its name back to the Mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 You, maybe inadvertently, hit the nail on the head: "I'LL join YOUR club." It's supposed to be OUR club. OK, semantics. Call it the club. My point still applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 Brexiters are a funny bunch, I have to say. I guess many of you have to make up (poor) excuses so that you don't have to admit it's just about xenophobia as that would associate you with the UKIP? I mean it's not news that Brits are xenophobic even without voting for UKIP so why bother with the other excuses? As an outsider I have tried to find a single fact that supports Britain leaving EU but it's all either emotional or basically complete hogwash (plus not a small amount of lies). I think you lot have the right to make your own mistakes so I'm not interested in changing someone's mind (and I can see that most have already made up their mind anyways). If you vote to leave then you leave. But please don't fool yourself into thinking you somehow get more leverage over the rest of Europe that way. Which is more important, rest of EU to British trade or Britain to the trade of the rest of the EU? There's very little leverage for Brits, you WILL have to make more concession than you do now. In fact the concessions EU have given to Britain to keep you in annoy a lot of high-ranking people in France and Germany already, there is absolutely no way the trade agreements with a Britain outside of EU would be better for you lot. Plus if you wanted to export something to the remaining EU your products and services would have to comply with laws you had 0% input in. The thing about WWIII is OTT but the basic idea is that EU is weaker without Britain. Russia will have even less opposition to their expansion so the risk they step over some boundary grows greater. Putin specifically would love for EU to break down as after that there would be no real opposition in Europe with USA turning its attention to Far East. Remember, Russia took a large patch of land in Europe and is keeping a war in Central Europe going already. What would an EU-less Europe do if it started pressing other neighbours? Matt, holystove and MikeO 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makis Posted June 14, 2016 Report Share Posted June 14, 2016 You, maybe inadvertently, hit the nail on the head: "I'LL join YOUR club." It's supposed to be OUR club. I think that's the crux of the issue. Britain has always distanced itself from the rest of the Europe. A common theme seems to be "us" vs "them". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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