London Blue Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 I'm sure we've heard them all before, but here are some typical outlandish EU regulations - some of which were withdrawn after the understandable outcry: - Eggs cannot be sold by the dozen. They must be sold by the kilogram. - Cucumbers cannot be sold if their curvature exceeds 10mm for every 10cm in length. - The angle on bananas cannot exceed a prescribed maximum. - A jam with less than 50% sugar must be called a preserve. - Producers of bottled water cannot claim that it helps prevent dehydration. - Sellers of prunes cannot claim they promote bowel movement. - A swede cannot be labled a turnip - unless it's in a Cornish pasty. - Those suffering from diabetes may not drive. - A child under 8 cannot blow up a balloon without adult supervision. - Horses may be eaten, but not pet horses. - It's illegal to use barley straw to clear garden ponds of algae. - Restaurants cannot serve customers with dishes of olive oil for their bread. - A child under 14 cannot use blow-out party poppers. - A kiwi fruit cannot be sold if it weighs less than 62 pgrams. How can anyone justify this level of regulation? Well the system works (a bit) if some were withdrawn, some make sense. The EU has given us allot, Money for the areas devastated by unemployment, like the coal mining ares in Wales, supported the UK space technology industry which is now worth over 1 billion pounds a year, made Liverpool European City of Culture, created the worlds largest free trade area. If we leave what does it look like, whats the plan, how will we manage things, that is something nobody from the Brexit side has been able to provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Well the system works (a bit) if some were withdrawn, some make sense. The EU has given us allot, Money for the areas devastated by unemployment, like the coal mining ares in Wales, supported the UK space technology industry which is now worth over 1 billion pounds a year, made Liverpool European City of Culture, created the worlds largest free trade area. If we leave what does it look like, whats the plan, how will we manage things, that is something nobody from the Brexit side has been able to provide. Maybe we could have invested 1 billion pounds ourselves and kept the other 12+ billion a year net that we send the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 What we forget, I think, is that, if Britain chooses to leave, the EU would bend over backwards to win us back. We'd win all kinds of concessions. Europe does as much business with us as we do with them. Britain leaving will very much hurt their pocket books. I can't see leaders throwing a hissy fit and refusing to trade with us - quite the opposite, in fact. Plus, we'd be free to do deals with other parts of the world that are currently being blocked because of EU policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) Maybe we could have invested 1 billion pounds ourselves and kept the other 12+ billion a year net that we send the EU. Its actually about 8.5 Billion when you take into account the re-bait and the money that the EU gives to the UK. What we actually get for our money is worth far more, British business has access to the largest single market in the world, with a clearly defined set of trading rules and regulations that are enforced to protect companies and consumers. This has enabled UK companies to build up solid relationships with EU companies and become entwined in various supply chains. 2/3 of all UK exports to the EU are goods and not services. If we were to leave the EU those goods that we sell would be disrupted and potentially made un-competitive depending on the trading relationship we end up having with the EU. What we forget, I think, is that, if Britain chooses to leave, the EU would bend over backwards to win us back. We'd win all kinds of concessions. Europe does as much business with us as we do with them. Britain leaving will very much hurt their pocket books. I can't see leaders throwing a hissy fit and refusing to trade with us - quite the opposite, in fact. Plus, we'd be free to do deals with other parts of the world that are currently being blocked because of EU policies. Yes the EU sells more to us than we do to them, but when you look at the EU's whole trade world wide we are not the be all or end all. The EU will not bend over backwards to keep us. If we vote to leave then that is it we are out. The EU will not go on bended knee asking us to stay. They existed before we joined and they can continue after we leave, although they will be weaker. They will do no extra deals with us, because if they do then what is to stop other countries pulling the same stunt? No as they have said if we vote out we are out. Individual countries in the EU are not allowed to have trade deals with other countries, as we are in a single market every treaty has to be negotiated as the EU. Together we have greater bargaining power than individual states, because we offer access to the the worlds largest single market, so we can get better terms. As President Obama and even China have said they want to deal with big blocks of countries, and not on a country by country basis. If we leave what is the end game, how will this work, will we do what Norway does and PAY to get access to the EU's market, if we do will still have to follow all the rules and regulations, but have no say in how the rules are made, oh and we have to allow the free movement of people. Perhaps we wont do that we will use the WTO, even then we still have to follow all the rules and regulations, but have no say in how the rules are made, there is no free movement of people, but our goods and services can be subject to tariffs and trade restrictions. Either way it will take at least 2 years to disentangle ourselves, and then we would have to re-negotiate trade agreements from scratch with every country. Then what happens to the millions of UK citizens who live in the EU, not to mention when we go the EU, if we fall ill we can use the EU Health scheme, we wont be able to any more. So which one will it be and how will it work out, how does it all fit together? Nobody in the out camp can say. How will this affect UK economy, well the World Bank, IMF, OECD, The Bank of England, top companies and financial institutions all say it will damage the UK economy, as well as the EU, with whom we do so much trade. In effect we then damage ourselves twice over. The large financial and legal companies that dominate our private sector would in all likelihood move to Paris so they could still operate in the EU without impediment. That's not me talking that's the heads of these companies themselves saying it. Edited June 1, 2016 by London Blue MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Honestly, I'm not too concerned about the economics. There will be adjustments, but we've always been a strong trading nation. Plus, we'll have a cushion of many billions a year to help out given we'll no longer contribute to the EU. I simply don't trust politicians; President Obama will say what he's told to say, and the big bankers simply see less money under their control. They'll kick and scream, and no doubt come out with increasingly apocalyptic predictions, but there comes a point when their remonstrations lose credibility. I'm more concerned about the rise of anti-immigrant groups and the intolerant UKIP after a Brexit. Their rantings and hyperbole and intimidations could lead to social strife, from which it would take many years to recover. And, as I mentioned before, the English will once more run rampant over other British cultures. I'm still on the fence (not that it matters since I'm barred from voting). It's interesting to see the polls, though, beginning to turn in favour of leaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Its actually about 8.5 Billion when you take into account the re-bait and the money that the EU gives to the UK. What we actually get for our money is worth far more, British business has access to the largest single market in the world, with a clearly defined set of trading rules and regulations that are enforced to protect companies and consumers. This has enabled UK companies to build up solid relationships with EU companies and become entwined in various supply chains. 2/3 of all UK exports to the EU are goods and not services. If we were to leave the EU those goods that we sell would be disrupted and potentially made un-competitive depending on the trading relationship we end up having with the EU. Yes the EU sells more to us than we do to them, but when you look at the EU's whole trade world wide we are not the be all or end all. The EU will not bend over backwards to keep us. If we vote to leave then that is it we are out. The EU will not go on bended knee asking us to stay. They existed before we joined and they can continue after we leave, although they will be weaker. They will do no extra deals with us, because if they do then what is to stop other countries pulling the same stunt? No as they have said if we vote out we are out. Individual countries in the EU are not allowed to have trade deals with other countries, as we are in a single market every treaty has to be negotiated as the EU. Together we have greater bargaining power than individual states, because we offer access to the the worlds largest single market, so we can get better terms. As President Obama and even China have said they want to deal with big blocks of countries, and not on a country by country basis. If we leave what is the end game, how will this work, will we do what Norway does and PAY to get access to the EU's market, if we do will still have to follow all the rules and regulations, but have no say in how the rules are made, oh and we have to allow the free movement of people. Perhaps we wont do that we will use the WTO, even then we still have to follow all the rules and regulations, but have no say in how the rules are made, there is no free movement of people, but our goods and services can be subject to tariffs and trade restrictions. Either way it will take at least 2 years to disentangle ourselves, and then we would have to re-negotiate trade agreements from scratch with every country. Then what happens to the millions of UK citizens who live in the EU, not to mention when we go the EU, if we fall ill we can use the EU Health scheme, we wont be able to any more. So which one will it be and how will it work out, how does it all fit together? Nobody in the out camp can say. How will this affect UK economy, well the World Bank, IMF, OECD, The Bank of England, top companies and financial institutions all say it will damage the UK economy, as well as the EU, with whom we do so much trade. In effect we then damage ourselves twice over. The large financial and legal companies that dominate our private sector would in all likelihood move to Paris so they could still operate in the EU without impediment. That's not me talking that's the heads of these companies themselves saying it. Good post. Still hoping Leave wins it, primarily for the reasons explained in this article by a London School of Economics professor : https://www.socialeurope.eu/2016/02/why-the-european-union-will-benefit-from-brexit/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 From a professor friend of mine doing coverage on the Brexit from an expat living in Switzerland point of view... I was at a talk by the Swiss Banking Association's chairman yesterday and here are a few things I didn't know before. 1. Since the introduction of immigration caps on EU citizens in 2014, Swiss banks are not permitted to provide banking services to European clients directly. 2. Latest figures show that the UK is the single largest exporter of financial services in the world, correct as of 2014. The main conclusion I draw from this is that, if the UK leaves the EU, it will, under no circumstance, put immigration caps on EU citizens because that would decimate the UK economy in fell swoop. The central corollary is, if you want to leave the EU because you're worried about immigration from the EU, you're going to need another reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 From a professor friend of mine doing coverage on the Brexit from an expat living in Switzerland point of view... And (let's be honest here), the number one reason people will vote leave is immigration. I'm not suggesting that's the case with all the out camp; John and others on here and many around the country will have given it deep thought and come to the conclusion that out is best, I respect that. But there are huge numbers in the, "Bloody Poles taking our jobs/sponging off benefits" camp for who that's the only consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 After seeing the poll on here I've re-registered to vote. I'm struggling to see why you would vote out. MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 And (let's be honest here), the number one reason people will vote leave is immigration. I'm not suggesting that's the case with all the out camp; John and others on here and many around the country will have given it deep thought and come to the conclusion that out is best, I respect that. But there are huge numbers in the, "Bloody Poles taking our jobs/sponging off benefits" camp for who that's the only consideration. Immigration is way down my list, though while I don't think you should ban it, it certainly needs controlling. At the moment, no one has a clue what is happening, least of all the Government. Top of my list is the fact that the EU is undemocratic and the more it develops the more undemocratic it will become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Immigration is way down my list, though while I don't think you should ban it, it certainly needs controlling. At the moment, no one has a clue what is happening, least of all the Government. Top of my list is the fact that the EU is undemocratic and the more it develops the more undemocratic it will become. wait john you don't want angela merkel telling you what to do? to be honest as an outsider it's interesting to me and i see value in both sides of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 And (let's be honest here), the number one reason people will vote leave is immigration. I'm not suggesting that's the case with all the out camp; John and others on here and many around the country will have given it deep thought and come to the conclusion that out is best, I respect that. But there are huge numbers in the, "Bloody Poles taking our jobs/sponging off benefits" camp for who that's the only consideration. I think the out campaign plays on the ill founded fears that "Immigrants take our jobs and our benefits" They do compete for jobs and there are some problems, especially in the agricultural area of agencies only advertising jobs abroad that need to be tackled. In truth though without them the NHS, Agricultural and production sectors would not be able to cope. As for benefits there is a surprisingly good article in the Telegraph that show the low take up of benefits by EU immigrants. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11255425/How-much-do-immigrants-really-claim-in-benefits.html There was a good routine done by Stewart Lee on this subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft338yltVLE MikeO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 I'll have the box please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 3, 2016 Report Share Posted June 3, 2016 Take the money, open the box, take the money, ... rubecula 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/06/08/481081101/a-guide-to-britains-brexit-vote decent guide to the brexit (american press) that shows both sides to the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Sounds like we have learned a lot about democracy from the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Tory peer Lord Astor, who is Samantha Camerons stepfather, forecast there would not be a House of Commons majority to revoke the European Communities Act 1972 supporting the UKs membership. An exit from the EU is actually not deliverable, he said, adding: The referendum is merely advisory it has no legal standing to force an exit. Parliament is still sovereign. And there you have it! Wouldn't happen, there'd be riots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Andrew Neill destroying George Osborne here.... fookin awesome display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Sounds like we have learned a lot about democracy from the EU. For me John the fundamental flaw in your logic is that you believe the UK's legislative institutions are democratically elected while the EU's are not. It's just not the case; firstly we have an undemocratic electoral system that never gives us a house of commons that represents the views of the people. Then we have the totally unelected house of lords as an "upper" house. Not to mention the civil service. We are no more democratic than the EU is imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Andrew Neill destroying George Osborne here.... fookin awesome display. It's easy for any intelligent journo to destroy anyone from either side in reality, because neither side has any "facts" or idea of the consequences either way, they're all guessing. Watched a couple of minutes of someone from the out camp having his pants pulled down last night, it's like shooting fish in a barrel for them. Bored shitless with it in all honesty, wish it was over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 It's easy for any intelligent journo to destroy anyone from either side in reality, because neither side has any "facts" or idea of the consequences either way, they're all guessing. Watched a couple of minutes of someone from the out camp having his pants pulled down last night, it's like shooting fish in a barrel for them. Bored shitless with it in all honesty, wish it was over. I must say Osborne looks a particularly snide smarmy twat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 I must say Osborne looks a particularly snide smarmy twat. There's a lot of it about; but I agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 For me John the fundamental flaw in your logic is that you believe the UK's legislative institutions are democratically elected while the EU's are not. It's just not the case; firstly we have an undemocratic electoral system that never gives us a house of commons that represents the views of the people. Then we have the totally unelected house of lords as an "upper" house. Not to mention the civil service. We are no more democratic than the EU is imo. Well, tell that to any of the Prime Ministers and MP's who have been voted out of office over the years and I don't think they'd agree with you. On the other hand there is no way that the EU elite can be voted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Well, tell that to any of the Prime Ministers and MP's who have been voted out of office over the years and I don't think they'd agree with you. On the other hand there is no way that the EU elite can be voted out. You're not really addressing my points but never mind. There's also no way top level civil servants or house of lords members can be voted out. The EU "elite" are appointed by the people we (as part of Europe) vote for. The UK elite are appointed by the people we (as UK citizens) vote for. Where's the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 I have my view on this and personally I'm an out voter. I'm disgusted that the government has used tax payers money to publish their views on the In vote. If they were being fair and open they should have been publishing both sides. To run a referendum but spend money on the PMs view, and not the view of parliament on the whole, I find immoral. I'm not really going to go into my reasons for wanting out, but it's business minded anyway. The one thing from all of the scare tactics is the idea that the NHS will fold without the EU. The NHS has never been run by the EU, it hasn't been funded by the EU. It is a British institution, if the government wanted to privatise it they can with or without the EU. Obviously there would be huge back lash if that happened, but voting out will not shut down the NHS or handover the keys to Bupa. Should the out vote go ahead it needs to be a phased exit. Maybe over three years or so, give the country chance to get a strategy together, negotiate new deals or keep existing ones where they suit. Just take the time to get it right. Either way we will all be fine. Strangely I was at a company meeting tonight. We were told by our CEO that his view is to be in. He didn't want to tell us his reasons why, he didn't want to influence us, and he asked us all to vote with our own thoughts rather than his. But he also told us that our company has a contingency plan ready to go should we vote out. I just found it weird, I inow they have to plan for these things, but I work for a company based in the UK, but owned outright by a company in Hong Kong, and our suppliers are in Germany. Our company expect no loss or trade with our German supplier either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holystove Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 I saw parts of the Cameron - Farage debate. Cameron wants to stay in so he can block further integration and so he can scale back where integration has already been achieved - he calls this reform. (this reaffirms my point that if Britain votes to stay in, the rest of Europe should get a vote on whether Britain should be allowed to stay in). If he's only going to talk about everything that is wrong in Brussels, ofcourse people are going to say "then we should just leave".. some campaigner this guy. Farage wants out because he doesn't want it to say EU on his passport, it should say Britain ... I do wonder about how the EU leaders (or the EU elite if you will ) will respond to a Brexit? Will they be petty and take protectionist measures? Will they aim at making sure it was (economically) the wrong decision to warn other eurosceptic governments? What if Scotland is hit very hard (economically) by a Brexit? Will a Brexit lead to a break-up of the UK, seeing how the Scots would like to stay in the EU? You'd almost want a Brexit to happen solely for academic purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) The down right lies have pissed me off. Disgusting. For me at the moment it's a case of who are the biggest liars? I have lost complete trust of the remain and my concern over the out lot is the people who are supporting it. Osborne last night made my skin crawl... pulling out a part of an aeroplane from his pocket??? Just fuck off you odious little Etonian bell end. Andrew Neill had a clear dislike of him, it was enjoyable watching him getting grilled. Normally the sympathetic side of me cringes... just look at these bunch of pompous gits... I would not tire of smacking every single one repeatedly http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2180095/Georges-bully-boys-Oozing-entitlement-young-Osborne-poses-Oxfords-infamous-Bullingdon-Club-newly-discovered-photo-But-they.html Edited June 9, 2016 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 Seen an article today with the European workers contributions being £2.5b, and only £0.5b being claimed as tax credits ect. Not such a migrants benefits problem as some are making out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnh Posted June 9, 2016 Report Share Posted June 9, 2016 You're not really addressing my points but never mind. There's also no way top level civil servants or house of lords members can be voted out. The EU "elite" are appointed by the people we (as part of Europe) vote for. The UK elite are appointed by the people we (as UK citizens) vote for. Where's the difference? Mike, the reason I didn't address your points is that I wasn't quite sure what you meant. The House of Lords are irrelevant. They can give advice and occasionally turf back some issues to the Commons but nothing of a serious nature. On the really important issues they are expected to support the Government. They have no real power. It will cease to exist in its current format in the next 10 years. Do not understand your point about the civil service? Every government in history has been supported by an administrative base. The EU Commission which consists of 28 members has a support staff of 23,000. So what? Apart from criticism about 'jobs for the boys' it happens everywhere. I repeat, in the last 2 General Elections the government has changed in Britain. In spite of all the problems affecting the EU with the euro and the economies of countries in the south, tell me who has been voted out in the EU. There is not even a procedure for doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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