Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 whats wrong with thanking God if that's what they want to do? They can do what they want mate, it's not up to me what they say, I also never said that they couldn't I just asked why they always seem to thank him yet don't appear to be remotely religeous in any of their public interviews or life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 No I'm not kidding in any way shape or form. God has NOTHING to do with what they achieve but if they are so concerned in thanking him and believe that he has influence give all their money to the starving or cancer research or another worth while organisation. Instead they choose to drive round in Ferraris with 50 grand watches and designer clobber. I have no issue with them doing this it's their money they're fortunate enough to earn it but spare me the "I thank god" lines when most blatantly squander money that could do so much good to so many desperate people. You have a point about the ferraris. Love him or hate him, Tim Tebow in the US spends a lot of his time and money actively helping people in need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 You have a point about the ferraris. Love him or hate him, Tim Tebow in the US spends a lot of his time and money actively helping people in need. I just think someone who truly believes that God has everything to do with their situation wouldn't walk round in a pair of jeans they had paid £1000 for or a rolex etc. After all the rolex only tells the time same as a £10 watch a Ferrari gets you from a to b same as a Ford Focus so why not be humble and do what the bible and church preaches and use what you have to make other peoples quality of life better. Do they really need a Ferrari or a 50 grand Rolex? Course they don't. Do people need clean water or food or shelter? Yes they do. I just think if they truly wanted to thank god and believed he had an influence they would give back a lot more then they do and be a lot less flashy and extravagant with their money. Cornish Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 They can do what they want mate, it's not up to me what they say, I also never said that they couldn't I just asked why they always seem to thank him yet don't appear to be remotely religeous in any of their public interviews or life.fair enough. I don't really get it either (same for actors receiving awards) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 I just think someone who truly believes that God has everything to do with their situation wouldn't walk round in a pair of jeans they had paid £1000 for or a rolex etc. After all the rolex only tells the time same as a £10 watch a Ferrari gets you from a to b same as a Ford Focus so why not be humble and do what the bible and church preaches and use what you have to make other peoples quality of life better. Do they really need a Ferrari or a 50 grand Rolex? Course they don't. Do people need clean water or food or shelter? Yes they do. I just think if they truly wanted to thank god and believed he had an influence they would give back a lot more then they do and be a lot less flashy and extravagant with their money. I think your issue is with evangelical Christianity, which is extremely otherworldly in its orientation. Their concept of "grace" being the important factor here. Being a recipient of God's grace is the sole determinant as to whether or not they gain admission into heaven. This has nothing to do with their good deeds in this world (pretty much the polar opposite of Catholicism, which is communal in nature) and rests on a belief of Christians individually receiving this blessing from on high through their commitment to simply having faith and accepting "grace." Thus, what they do in this world is entirely up to their own interpretation of what it means to be "a Christian." This particular brand of Christianity is extremely popular in so-called "third world" countries for several reasons, chiefly: the proliferation of American evangelical missionaries who seek to convert anyone and everyone and have lots of money behind their operations, the immediate material gains attached to "accepting God's grace" for people in poorer conditions, and the eternal promise of salvation for people who live precarious lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 I think your issue is with evangelical Christianity, which is extremely otherworldly in its orientation. Their concept of "grace" being the important factor here. Being a recipient of God's grace is the sole determinant as to whether or not they gain admission into heaven. This has nothing to do with their good deeds in this world (pretty much the polar opposite of Catholicism, which is communal in nature) and rests on a belief of Christians individually receiving this blessing from on high through their commitment to simply having faith and accepting "grace." Thus, what they do in this world is entirely up to their own interpretation of what it means to be "a Christian." This particular brand of Christianity is extremely popular in so-called "third world" countries for several reasons, chiefly: the proliferation of American evangelical missionaries who seek to convert anyone and everyone and have lots of money behind their operations, the immediate material gains attached to "accepting God's grace" for people in poorer conditions, and the eternal promise of salvation for people who live precarious lives. Good post Joe and if that's true then that explains it. Just think it's a bit hypocrytical thanking god for earning stupid amounts of money while people all over the world die because they can't eat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 fair enough. I don't really get it either (same for actors receiving awards) Yep, not just footballers to be fair is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 I hope you're kidding or trying to get a reaction at the very least. It worked - that's an insanely ignorant statement. Just wondering...what worked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Just wondering...what worked? He's clearly religeous and takes it seeiously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 He's clearly religeous and takes it seeiously. Hmmmm...needs to read a book called 'The History of Mankind'. All is explained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) This forums gone down the pan last couple of weeks. Edited June 6, 2016 by MC11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 This forums gone down the pan last couple of weeks. That's because you're not posting enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Hmmmm...needs to read a book called 'The History of Mankind'. All is explained. Pardon the pun here but you're preaching to the choir with me on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Pardon the pun here but you're preaching to the choir with me on this. Yeah, I know, hence he needs to read that book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newty82 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 This forums gone down the pan last couple of weeks. You feeling left out lass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 You feeling left out lass? I've tried to include him loads but he keeps standing me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Good post Joe and if that's true then that explains it. Just think it's a bit hypocrytical thanking god for earning stupid amounts of money while people all over the world die because they can't eat. They ate only thanking him pad, not saying they are going to do good with it. Same as drug dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Good post Joe and if that's true then that explains it. Just think it's a bit hypocrytical thanking god for earning stupid amounts of money while people all over the world die because they can't eat. Maybe for you it's hypocritical. But, the point is that, for them, it is entirely rational within their worldview. I would suggest reading a canonical text in anthropology and sociology, Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism", if you want to understand further how hard work, outward signs of wealth and salvation go together without issue for Protestant Christians. But, quickly, I'll say that Calvin, for instance, argued for predestination. The idea is that there's only a certain amount of people selected for inclusion into heaven, and there's no way of knowing who. This is a cause for a great amount of anxiety. As capitalism expanded, the this-worldly outward signs of wealth, success and hard work came to be seen as symbolic representations of one's otherworldly selection as a recipient of God's grace. Therefore, appearing successful in this world to those around you improves your status as a member of the community and as a Christian, as it shows that you are truly the beneficiary of God's grace. So, work hard, achieve success, thank God for making that all possible. However, according to some, there has arguably been a de-linking of this in the second half of the 20th century, as hard work has paid off less and less the more that capitalism has advanced in needing less skilled human labor (with technological advances) and in finding cheaper and cheaper labor markets (with globalization). This means the anxiety over salvation has heightened and that people need to be even more pious to affirm for themselves and others that they are indeed blessed with God's grace. When people succeed, seemingly against all odds, it truly feels like an act of God for those who are pious. Also look into whatever you can about the "prosperity gospel" in contemporary evangelical Christianity. Some truly fucked up shit. Edited June 6, 2016 by JoeQuince chicagoblue and MikeO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Therefore, appearing successful in this world to those around you improves your status as a member of the community and as a Christian, as it shows that you are truly the beneficiary of God's grace. So, work hard, achieve success, thank God for making that all possible. As you say, this is the prosperity gospel, very prevalent in the US and around the world, and I - along with plenty of others - completely and utterly reject it. To me, actions must match words. Those I most admire thank God for their poverty, their suffering, their low circumstances, their undeserved criticism, even their handicap or disease - and also those who give of what they have - time, money, resources - until it hurts. I see no problem in this guy thanking God for a good contract - but I'm sure plenty will be watching to see how he responds to it. It's unfair to criticize in advance: Let's see how many Ferraris and fancy watches he owns in a year's time. Instead, we may be wondering how someone could have helped so many people in need. Better still, we won't know because he's kept his generosity a secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Maybe for you it's hypocritical. But, the point is that, for them, it is entirely rational within their worldview. I would suggest reading a canonical text in anthropology and sociology, Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism", if you want to understand further how hard work, outward signs of wealth and salvation go together without issue for Protestant Christians. But, quickly, I'll say that Calvin, for instance, argued for predestination. The idea is that there's only a certain amount of people selected for inclusion into heaven, and there's no way of knowing who. This is a cause for a great amount of anxiety. As capitalism expanded, the this-worldly outward signs of wealth, success and hard work came to be seen as symbolic representations of one's otherworldly selection as a recipient of God's grace. Therefore, appearing successful in this world to those around you improves your status as a member of the community and as a Christian, as it shows that you are truly the beneficiary of God's grace. So, work hard, achieve success, thank God for making that all possible. However, according to some, there has arguably been a de-linking of this in the second half of the 20th century, as hard work has paid off less and less the more that capitalism has advanced in needing less skilled human labor (with technological advances) and in finding cheaper and cheaper labor markets (with globalization). This means the anxiety over salvation has heightened and that people need to be even more pious to affirm for themselves and others that they are indeed blessed with God's grace. When people succeed, seemingly against all odds, it truly feels like an act of God for those who are pious. Also look into whatever you can about the "prosperity gospel" in contemporary evangelical Christianity. Some truly fucked up shit. Bit heavy for me that Joe mate, I'm an out and out atheist so it would be wasted on me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Bit heavy for me that Joe mate, I'm an out and out atheist so it would be wasted on me anyway. Ah - someone who believes a championship-winning team will magically appear out of nothing and requires no intelligence of any sort. Gotcha. Can we have "no manager needed" as an option in the poll, please? It'll save a bundle of cash, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Personally I think religion can bring hope in times of trouble. Do I believe? To an extent yes. Am I a bible basher....no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Personally I think religion can bring hope in times of trouble. Do I believe? To an extent yes. Am I a bible basher....no. You were an alter boy weren't you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Ah - someone who believes a championship-winning team will magically appear out of nothing and requires no intelligence of any sort. Gotcha. Can we have "no manager needed" as an option in the poll, please? It'll save a bundle of cash, that's for sure. God doesn't win you leagues, managers do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Bit heavy for me that Joe mate, I'm an out and out atheist so it would be wasted on me anyway. Same here. But, don't let being an atheist preclude you from understanding the social foundations of how religions work. As a self-identified atheist, you participate in your social worlds as an atheist. Your identity as an atheist is not unmarked and free of ideological and cultural baggage, just as the "religulous" ones you criticize aren't free of that same baggage. Scientific atheism, for instance, operates quite like a religion, with its canonical texts, absolute conviction that it reveals Truth, and a way of relating to the outside world of (non-)non-believers. Just stay open and understand that we're all irrational, deluded human beings trying to make sense of the universe, and therefore we aren't so different after all! (...says the anthropologist) markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjazzbassist Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Same here. But, don't let being an atheist preclude you from understanding the social foundations of how religions work. As a self-identified atheist, you participate in your social worlds as an atheist. Your identity as an atheist is not unmarked and free of ideological and cultural baggage, just as the "religulous" ones you criticize aren't free of that same baggage. Scientific atheism, for instance, operates quite like a religion, with its canonical texts, absolute conviction that it reveals Truth, and a way of relating to the outside world of (non-)non-believers. Just stay open and understand that we're all irrational, deluded human beings trying to make sense of the universe, and therefore we aren't so different after all! (...says the anthropologist) bravo joe, you're the first atheist i've encountered that has ever said/understood this (all of the above, but especially the bold). and i agree with your last sentiment, regardless of faith/no faith/science/belief in fairies/etc we're all in this together and should treat each other accordingly. great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 God doesn't win you leagues, managers do. Random events and increasing entropy don't create you universes and intelligent life. The more deeply I got into physics, the more I understood that. The older I get, the more I question the bit about life being intelligent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Scientific atheism, for instance, operates quite like a religion, with its canonical texts, absolute conviction that it reveals Truth, and a way of relating to the outside world of (non-)non-believers. Absolutely spot on! I happen to be friends with a rather well-known Cambridge professor, and we discussed this very point in relation to Richard Dawkins - who's as passionately committed to his 'religion' as any other person on earth. markjazzbassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 God doesn't win you leagues, managers do. Is that a Goldie Lookin Chain cover? Hoof_It_Nev 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddock Posted June 6, 2016 Report Share Posted June 6, 2016 Random events and increasing entropy don't create you universes and intelligent life. The more deeply I got into physics, the more I understood that. The older I get, the more I question the bit about life being intelligent. Nobody knows for sure though do they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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