SimonButtle Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 vicious circle isnt it Dunc? If he had invested in his defence he might not have been able to play attacking football. Again the point is, he didnt have the cash needed to improve his team. Yes and No, it's not just about the players though, tactics come into it. If you saw the Arsenal game, positionally the Wigan defence was all over the place for most of the 90 mins, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcirony Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Are you messing? Who the fuck are you anyway? I just read the thread and i'm sorry but you come across as being totally unreasonable, in other words 'being a bit of a dick'. We all do it sometimes and all we can do is put our hands up and admit it, instead of getting nasty. Hahaha who the fuck am I?! That made me laugh. I'm the same as everyone else on here, an Everton fan who wants to discuss Everton without getting abuse or reading other people needlessly giving out childish abuse. I've said this before but the motto of this website is 'for the thinking Evertonian'. You don't think with your fists mate. efc1111 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 I got it first time but then again, I have a brilliant mind * Takes one step back from the edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Yes and No, it's not just about the players though, tactics come into it. If you saw the Arsenal game, positionally the Wigan defence was all over the place for most of the 90 mins,could be argued that the crap positioning is down to crap players rather than tactics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 could be argued that the crap positioning is down to crap players rather than tactics.... I get what your saying but positioning comes from the training field, the manager must know how he wants his defenders to line up in the various scenarios, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenosetoffee Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Everyone who looks at Martinez is just thinking about well they got relegated and is a fan of Everton who only watch Everton games and not any others and when MOTD comes on they don't take a notice until Everton are on. Martinez is an obvious choice, maybe he didn't reinvest in his team but his tactic is attack is the greatest form of defence. With our defenders I don't think we will have a problem. He has managed another team except for Wigan and did quite well. Anyway, anybody who has Stubbs and Weir in the back room staff can't be half bad in defence right? Moyes and Martinez are different in form of tactics. Moyes likes to concentrate on defending, whilst Martinez is a man of attack. Jags and Distin won't forget what Moyes has taught them and they are so much better than Wigan defenders. Anyway when Martinez is appointed as manager he will have my full backing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenosetoffee Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Didn't he try and play the offside trap in the Arsenal game? Which is never good to play against Arsenal with the likes of Walcott and Chamberlain on the wings who could outpace any defenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 I get what your saying but positioning comes from the training field, the manager must know how he wants his defenders to line up in the various scenarios, surely?the training is only as good as the player. If the player forgets/doesn't understand/can't be arsed, tactics have no chance. Martinez et al could shout a million perfect instructions but its down to the player to carry them out. I know what you mean but I think the faults of defense have less to do with tactics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenosetoffee Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 It isn't an excuse either but I do think the FA cup had a big impact on Wigan survival. If they hadn't of been in the final then maybe it would have been a different story. They played there socks off against City and played really well. I know these are footballers who get paid 20k wages but still if you played like you did against City for 90 minutes there is bound to be some sore legs. Would we be considering Martinez if he kept Wigan up but didn't win the FA cup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Are you not missing the point aswell though Haf He had money to spend and used it in other areas when it was obvious his back four was a priority He spent £5m on Ivan Ramis (good signing) who got injured (knee - cruiciate ligaments) just after Christmas for the remainder of the season, at this time Alcaraz was also out injured for a good period. Wigan can't go and buy a replacement for their best centre half, Martinez identified it needed to happen as a loan, but couldn't get anyone. If we lost Jags and Distin how would we fare?? maybe a little better with duffy and heits but you can see the impact. Matt and Quinn31 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 If Moyes was defensive minded, would he not have played 4-4-2 ? I can't help thinking people have forgotten that Moyes had no money either. It's as though we've pulled the Everton covers off him and left him to the cold whilst we keep Mr Martinez snuggled up and warm regarding making excuses. Under Moyes, we have a strong defence, built upon bargains and good coaching, not to mention finding the right players with the right intelligence. Our defence will need it's own level of attention now, given that we have lost Neville, possibly about to lose Heitinga, and Hibbert and Distin are getting older. You can argue that we have Oviedo, Duffy, and Stones, but it wouldn't be a strong counter, as they are all back up players until proven otherwise. If Baines leaves, that escalates the situation. We now have a potential problem, in that the manager who is possibly the worst at building a defence in the history of football, now has to restructure Everton's defence. We then have our midfield, which is not as strong as it was, and really does need another big presence, especially in the defensive aspect. Barkley is not the player we need in the middle, unless we are prepared to drop Osman. Perhaps Mcarthy could be a good acquisition, but we would have to find a few quid. Striker wise, there is no point in getting Kone. He is 30 this year, and is an African Nations player as well, so long term, not a great investment. Di Santo on the other hand is only 24, and is out of contract, so could be an astute transfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBlood81 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) Di Santo on the other hand is only 24, and is out of contract, so could be an astute transfer. Good point, is he definitly out of contract? Edited June 4, 2013 by BlueBlood81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Di Santo may be young and out of contract, he's also not very good. Quinn31, Bailey, Romey 1878 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBlood81 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Di Santo may be young and out of contract, he's also not very good. He's better than Naismith! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBlood81 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 ....So am I though to be fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) If Moyes was defensive minded, would he not have played 4-4-2 ? I can't help thinking people have forgotten that Moyes had no money either. It's as though we've pulled the Everton covers off him and left him to the cold whilst we keep Mr Martinez snuggled up and warm regarding making excuses. Under Moyes, we have a strong defence, built upon bargains and good coaching, not to mention finding the right players with the right intelligence. Our defence will need it's own level of attention now, given that we have lost Neville, possibly about to lose Heitinga, and Hibbert and Distin are getting older. You can argue that we have Oviedo, Duffy, and Stones, but it wouldn't be a strong counter, as they are all back up players until proven otherwise. If Baines leaves, that escalates the situation. We now have a potential problem, in that the manager who is possibly the worst at building a defence in the history of football, now has to restructure Everton's defence. We then have our midfield, which is not as strong as it was, and really does need another big presence, especially in the defensive aspect. Barkley is not the player we need in the middle, unless we are prepared to drop Osman. Perhaps Mcarthy could be a good acquisition, but we would have to find a few quid. Striker wise, there is no point in getting Kone. He is 30 this year, and is an African Nations player as well, so long term, not a great investment. Di Santo on the other hand is only 24, and is out of contract, so could be an astute transfer. Talking a whole different level of poverty with Wigan Av. Moyes has had it cushy compared to Martinez. Not gonna keep labouring that one (see my earlier post on average player salaries), transfer fees tempt the club to sell, that's only the small part, it all hinges on agreeing player terms. Example:- Darron Gibson. Nearly every team in the prem could afford the 500k transfer fee. Only 7 could pay his £40-£50k a week. Even if Wigan could (they coukdnt) would he choose to play in front of 18,000 instead of 38,000? Btw our midfield is as strong as its been, Fellaini, Gibson, Osman, mirallas, pienaar, and Barkley is looking a great prospect behind striker (see arsenal game) If baines goes then its for approx £20m - money to strengthen squad. I would actually like to see a manager build a great premier league defence on the wage structure Wigan have. Every defensive 1st team signing Moyes has made bar Coleman has been on good wages. Lescott was on £35k when we signed him all those years ago, as was jags. Jags is now near £60k a week. When judging Martinez bear in mind the wages he can pay. Edited June 4, 2013 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Di Santo may be young and out of contract, he's also not very good. Couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Regarding Di Santo, how quick some are to say he is not that good, yet don't offer him the same excuses as you offer Martinez. How good might he be at a team like United, or perhaps a team like Chelsea, or dare I say it ...... a team like Everton? Free is free, and he would bite his toes off to come here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Regarding Di Santo, how quick some are to say he is not that good, yet don't offer him the same excuses as you offer Martinez. How good might he be at a team like United, or perhaps a team like Chelsea, or dare I say it ...... a team like Everton? Free is free, and he would bite his toes off to come here. Some have watched Wigan play and trust what they saw. Di Santo has got very few attributes going for him. The surest way to actually change into a relegation struggler is signing Wigan's second choice striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Kone and McCarthy would be two good signings from Wigan. Possibly even Macmannamon. If Martinez gets the job I hope he brings at least 2/3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Yes and No, it's not just about the players though, tactics come into it. If you saw the Arsenal game, positionally the Wigan defence was all over the place for most of the 90 mins, I saw a horrible game in the FA cup with an Everton that were horribly wrong in their defending positions, all over the place for most of the 90 minutes. All Moyes fault? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Talking a whole different level of poverty with Wigan Av. Moyes has had it cushy compared to Martinez. Not gonna keep labouring that one (see my earlier post on average player salaries), transfer fees tempt the club to sell, that's only the small part, it all hinges on agreeing player terms. Example:- Darron Gibson. Nearly every team in the prem could afford the 500k transfer fee. Only 7 could pay his £40-£50k a week. Even if Wigan could (they coukdnt) would he choose to play in front of 18,000 instead of 38,000? Btw our midfield is as strong as its been, Fellaini, Gibson, Osman, mirallas, pienaar, and Barkley is looking a great prospect behind striker (see arsenal game) If baines goes then its for approx £20m - money to strengthen squad. I would actually like to see a manager build a great premier league defence on the wage structure Wigan have. Every defensive 1st team signing Moyes has made bar Coleman has been on good wages. Lescott was on £35k when we signed him all those years ago, as was jags. Jags is now near £60k a week. When judging Martinez bear in mind the wages he can pay. 2 points Haf: Everton are 46m in debt. Wigan are 12m in debt. In my book, we are therefore poorer than Wigan by 34m. Not sure how we can look at it any other way. Midfield wise, how are we stronger? We lost Arteta, Bilyaletdinov, Gosling, Rodwell, Drenthe, Wallace, Gueye, and Cahill, all with the exception of Wallace were getting first team football, and we already had Fellaini, Osman, Barkley, Pienaar (spurs noted) etc etc. We've since brought in Gibson, Kennedy, Hitz, and Junior. Mirallas is much more of a striker. We are short of bodies for midfield, and could do with investment. It may be we have to sell a big name in order to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 I saw a horrible game in the FA cup with an Everton that were horribly wrong in their defending positions, all over the place for most of the 90 minutes. All Moyes fault? Bit of both, poor individual performances that day and the fact Moyes often struggled to get the team to replicate league form during cup matches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Kone and McCarthy would be two good signings from Wigan. Possibly even Macmannamon. If Martinez gets the job I hope he brings at least 2/3. I hope we don't go in for Koné. A bit too old and I hope we go for a real quality reinforcement up front, not someone who could do a job (which is what Koné is to me). Same reason why I wouldn't want Maloney. Alcaraz could be a decent squad member for free, as a 4th choice centre back who could allow Duffy to go on a season long loan to the Championship or something. I'd be happy if we were to sign McCarthy or McManaman for the right price though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Bit of both, poor individual performances that day and the fact Moyes often struggled to get the team to replicate league form during cup matches Mix of a lot of things. DM being outwitted by Martinez, caught with his junk hanging out so to speak. Uncertanty in the back 4 due to the chock Individual mistakes, read Neville. 1st goal led to more uncertanty and bang, theres two and three. The first point above led to points 2,3 and 4 imo. So it might have been DMs fault but I much rather think it was Martinez tactics that caused everything. We all know that DM is good at organising the back 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 2 points Haf: Everton are 46m in debt. Wigan are 12m in debt. In my book, we are therefore poorer than Wigan by 34m. Not sure how we can look at it any other way. Midfield wise, how are we stronger? We lost Arteta, Bilyaletdinov, Gosling, Rodwell, Drenthe, Wallace, Gueye, and Cahill, all with the exception of Wallace were getting first team football, and we already had Fellaini, Osman, Barkley, Pienaar (spurs noted) etc etc. We've since brought in Gibson, Kennedy, Hitz, and Junior. Mirallas is much more of a striker. We are short of bodies for midfield, and could do with investment. It may be we have to sell a big name in order to do this. Agreed, i think midfield area is one of the key areas that needs attention.We have some good players in there but they struggled as a unit under Moyes at times imo Fellaini: Doesn't seem to know whether he wants to stay or go Gibson: Great player, but spends as much time on the treatment table as he does on the pitch Osman: Could flourish under a manager like Martinez, but is always be far too inconsistent imo and is also the wrong side of 30 Mirallas: A god, we must keep hold of him Pienaar: Completely gash last season and if he starts next season showing the same sort of form then he should out the door come January imo Barkley: Still young and learning his trade, but he is the sort of player a manager like Martinez should be building his midfield around. We need a few more options here like you said Av, even if it means sacrificing Felli for the sake of 2/3 slightly cheaper players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Lets hope that Ani keeps developing like he has this past season. Perhaps he might be able to reach those hights that we were promised. If he does then I agree, we dont need Kone but if Ani starts to show the same kind of attitude and crappy play that we all remember from the past, then Kone is a better player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Lets hope that Ani keeps developing like he has this past season. Perhaps he might be able to reach those hights that we were promised. If he does then I agree, we dont need Kone but if Ani starts to show the same kind of attitude and crappy play that we all remember from the past, then Kone is a better player. I agree Koné would probably marginally be our best striker, but I hope the largest part of our spending money this summer goes to a striker though, so I hope for a better one than him. Someone who could conceivably get 15-20 goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 I agree Koné would probably marginally be our best striker, but I hope the largest part of our spending money this summer goes to a striker though, so I hope for a better one than him. Someone who could conceivably get 15-20 goals. Im inclined to agree with most in this thread. I think its the midfield that needs strengthening and thats where I hope the bulk of the money is spent. Atleast if Jelavic stays. We all know how good Jelly can be. Lets just hope that the new manager plays to his strengths. I think the problems he has had will go away automatically if Fellaini is sold. If Felli goes, replace with 1 top midfielder and 1 backup. Get Jelly back in the strike zone and watch him bang in 20 goals next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Im inclined to agree with most in this thread. I think its the midfield that needs strengthening and thats where I hope the bulk of the money is spent. Atleast if Jelavic stays. We all know how good Jelly can be. Lets just hope that the new manager plays to his strengths. I think the problems he has had will go away automatically if Fellaini is sold. If Felli goes, replace with 1 top midfielder and 1 backup. Get Jelly back in the strike zone and watch him bang in 20 goals next season. I think Martinez will require a striker who can play, not just score, Jelavic isn't that striker for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.