Sibdane Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Yes, I wave the white flag to you.... Your superior knowledge of the blues and all they stand for is insperational to us all....MUPPETT!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Only in th An argument and a debate are the same thing, but I digress. You're original argument contains a comparison between Dennis and Heitinga, and that argument is flawed. Far more goes into comparing Dennis to Heitinga: they play different positions, one plays in a far more superior league, one has appearances for his national team, etc. To bring Distin into your defense does nothing to support your Dennis/Heitinga claim, thus has nothing to do with your original "argument" that was flawed, and it just makes you look desperate. Probably a better comparison would have been with Johnny and Jelavic Both players had a spell where they were superb for us, but both now have really struggled for form for an extended period. Only in this forum could a defender be slated for tackling! Quinn31, Bailey and Sibdane 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Regulator Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 I always liked him. I reckon he's a great defender. Granted he doesn't put in enough effort for us sometimes, but the same could be said for every player at every club in the history of club football. Some people have unrealistic expectations. Distin has also been shit on occasion, as has Jags. Heitinga has played enough games at a good enough level that I can forgive the games where he played like crap. As pointed out, there's a reason he's in the heart of the Netherlands defense and won player of the year with us, because he can play that well. And has. Bizzare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 I always liked him. I reckon he's a great defender. Granted he doesn't put in enough effort for us sometimes, but the same could be said for every player at every club in the history of club football. Some people have unrealistic expectations. Distin has also been shit on occasion, as has Jags. Heitinga has played enough games at a good enough level that I can forgive the games where he played like crap. As pointed out, there's a reason he's in the heart of the Netherlands defense and won player of the year with us, because he can play that well. And has. Bizzare. Was Johnny in the team for the eauro's just gone? I made a simple observation regarding Heitinga that he has had his moment for us, he has had his chances and he hasnt kicked on from his player of the year season... He has to go, he is too slow and doesnt read a game as good as everyone might think, cause he jockeys instead of challenging. I will not say another word about it but laugh to myself when he gets his start again and proves me right... I can honestly say i think he got lucky in the year he got the award. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Was Johnny in the team for the eauro's just gone? I made a simple observation regarding Heitinga that he has had his moment for us, he has had his chances and he hasnt kicked on from his player of the year season... He has to go, he is too slow and doesnt read a game as good as everyone might think, cause he jockeys instead of challenging. I will not say another word about it but laugh to myself when he gets his start again and proves me right... I can honestly say i think he got lucky in the year he got the award. bit difficult to kick on or be selected for the Euro team when youve been unceremoniously dropped by your manager. He may well have had his day, the truth is he hasnt been given a chance to show if thats true or not. You cannot judge a player on 3-4 dodgy games. Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 I will not say another word about it but laugh to myself when he gets his start again and proves me right... You'd laugh at an Everton player having a poor game because it proves you right? Very sad. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 You'd laugh at an Everton player having a poor game because it proves you right? Very sad. Mike, stop being a little bitch... Your are the best everton supporter out there.... There you go Mike, one for your ego.... Stop getting on the band wagon and being all bitchy ya little bitch face.... Can i have a pop at an everton player without everyone getting all defensive over it.... More defensive than Johnny has been in the past two years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Well thought out rational response as always Brett. Sibdane and The Regulator 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Thanks michael Edited September 9, 2013 by Brett Angel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 bit difficult to kick on or be selected for the Euro team when youve been unceremoniously dropped by your manager. He may well have had his day, the truth is he hasnt been given a chance to show if thats true or not. You cannot judge a player on 3-4 dodgy games. Very true but he hasn't just had 3 or 4 dodgy games, he was a liability just about every time he stepped on the pitch last season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Very true but he hasn't just had 3 or 4 dodgy games, he was a liability just about every time he stepped on the pitch last season whereas the season(s) before that he was very good. Its hard to replicate the form you had if youre sitting on the bench and then supposed to spring into action. His 1st couple of games were terrible, knocking whatever little confidence he had left clean out of him. Also in his defence, Benteke made a fool of a lot of defenders last season, its not like Johnny was the only one. Theres also the fact that Distin shouldve been marking Benteke so bad call from management / good call from Villa ("Distin will be tougher than Heitinga, go at the shorter one") Like I said above, maybe he has had his day but we just dont know. I just think its unfair to write him off without any acknowledgement of what he has done for us and not knowing how he play under Martinez. The couple of times hes played in preseason in CDM hes looked good for the most part, sturdy with good distribution. Edited September 9, 2013 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 whereas the season(s) before that he was very good. Its hard to replicate the form you had if youre sitting on the bench and then supposed to spring into action. His 1st couple of games were terrible, knocking whatever little confidence he had left clean out of him. Also in his defence, Benteke made a fool of a lot of defenders last season, its not like Johnny was the only one. Theres also the fact that Distin shouldve been marking Benteke so bad call from management / good call from Villa ("Distin will be tougher than Heitinga, go at the shorter one") Like I said above, maybe he has had his day but we just dont know. I just think its unfair to write him off without any acknowledgement of what he has done for us and not knowing how he play under Martinez. The couple of times hes played in preseason in CDM hes looked good for the most part, sturdy with good distribution. At this point, I'd have him over Osman in midfield. Couldn't be much worse. Matt and StevO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 whereas the season(s) before that he was very good. Its hard to replicate the form you had if youre sitting on the bench and then supposed to spring into action. His 1st couple of games were terrible, knocking whatever little confidence he had left clean out of him. Also in his defence, Benteke made a fool of a lot of defenders last season, its not like Johnny was the only one. Theres also the fact that Distin shouldve been marking Benteke so bad call from management / good call from Villa ("Distin will be tougher than Heitinga, go at the shorter one") Like I said above, maybe he has had his day but we just dont know. I just think its unfair to write him off without any acknowledgement of what he has done for us and not knowing how he play under Martinez. The couple of times hes played in preseason in CDM hes looked good for the most part, sturdy with good distribution. I will give you Benteke because he looked a real handful for any defender however Im more concerned about the likes of Carlton Cole totally dominating him. It probably is down to confidence however the point remains that on the form he has shown for the past 12 months or so then Jags and Distin fully deserve to be ahead of him in the pecking order Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Blue Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 At this point, I'd have him over Osman in midfield. Couldn't be much worse. At this point I would rather have Barry Horne back in our midfield than Ossie Sibdane 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bailey Posted September 9, 2013 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 Heitinga's case is a weird one because he has played against bigger and stronger striker's that the likes of Benteke and Cole and absolutely dominated them but for some reason the year after he won player of the year, he went to the Euros (or WC!?) and put in some of the worst performances I have ever seen from him and that transferred into his club form last season. I think part of the problem is that he is a confidence player and he needs to play week in week out. Even when he came into the first team, he looked dodgy and it was after a run of games that he started to really dominate some of the best strikers in the league. He was dealing with situations that Jags and Distin hadnt even thought of some of the time and his ability to play that accurate long ball was a really good outlet for us, not to mention someone that was happy to draw a defender in without panicking. Now though, he cant even do that properly and those long passes we used to take for granted arent hitting their man, or at least regularly enough and instead of using his aggression and attitude to bully the striker off the ball, now they are doing it to him. Not to mention, when he did fuck up before, he at least put the effort in to rectify the situation but now he seems to accept it and sulk a little. I have no doubt that he is the best CB we have at the club if you looked at this all round ability, but the confidence was knocked out of him last year and I don't see any sign of it returning. Matt, SimonButtle, StevO and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Heitinga's case is a weird one because he has played against bigger and stronger striker's that the likes of Benteke and Cole and absolutely dominated them but for some reason the year after he won player of the year, he went to the Euros (or WC!?) and put in some of the worst performances I have ever seen from him and that transferred into his club form last season. I think part of the problem is that he is a confidence player and he needs to play week in week out. Even when he came into the first team, he looked dodgy and it was after a run of games that he started to really dominate some of the best strikers in the league. He was dealing with situations that Jags and Distin hadnt even thought of some of the time and his ability to play that accurate long ball was a really good outlet for us, not to mention someone that was happy to draw a defender in without panicking. Now though, he cant even do that properly and those long passes we used to take for granted arent hitting their man, or at least regularly enough and instead of using his aggression and attitude to bully the striker off the ball, now they are doing it to him. Not to mention, when he did fuck up before, he at least put the effort in to rectify the situation but now he seems to accept it and sulk a little. I have no doubt that he is the best CB we have at the club if you looked at this all round ability, but the confidence was knocked out of him last year and I don't see any sign of it returning. Spot on. Without a doubt the most talented defender we have had for years. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebittight Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 (edited) I am not a fan but I think he has the body shape, look and gait of a midfielder whose best position is central defence. His Premiership bow - away to Portsmouth - at right back was truly dreadful. He was roasted continuously. I have honestly seen sixteen year olds have better debuts. He was billed as a 'Jack of all trades seasoned international' but for me he is what the Americans call a "Tweener" - neither fish nor foul <defender or midfielder> I never bought into the fist pumping. It reminded me of the bipolar Gravesen who was either sugar or shid from game to game and within a game. I know nothing about him off the field but I simply cannot believe he is still with us because he wants to be. Edited September 10, 2013 by weebittight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 I am not a fan but I think he has the body shape, look and gait of a midfielder whose best position is central defence. His Premiership bow - away to Portsmouth - at right back was truly dreadful. He was roasted continuously. I have honestly seen sixteen year olds have better debuts. He was billed as a 'Jack of all trades seasoned international' but for me he is what the Americans call a "Tweener" - neither fish nor foul <defender or midfielder> I never bought into the fist pumping. It reminded me of the bipolar Gravesen who was either sugar or shid from game to game and within a game. I know nothing about him off the field but I simply cannot believe he is still with us because he wants to be. oooooohhhhh Andrew where have you been all my life. :jump for joy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Im not even sure he was ever that good anymore. The more i read opinions of him the more i wonder if we all just went for the underdog? He was pants when he first arrived and just as we did with Anichebe last year, we built him up higher when he actually improved a bit. I remember rooting for him the year he won player of the year. But it wasnt because he was this excellent ball playing centre back, but more becuase he went through a few forwards...fairly but hard. this reminded me of CBs from old and i loved the way it made me feel. His diagonal balls were never pinpoint like a beckham or scoles but rather attrition football. Put it in the right area and if you have a willing forward he will get on the end of it. I still struggle to get to grips with the " hes the best CB we have at the club " mentality? I mean seriously? The guy is better than Jags, you know the one...England regular, puts his body on the line week in week out, even when he has a bad game he still puts in 100% and very rarely looks a liability..if ever. Then there is Distin...again you know the bloke, mister ever dependable, mister ever reliable, the freak of human nature. Are we really going to class him as better than those two? No, for me his best position is a holding midfielder. A position where he does not need to head a ball...because hes shit. but can recieve the ball in a calm manner and lay of a nice tidy short pass to one of the ball playing mids like Barkley. Now my next question would be...is he better here than Barry/Gibson or McCarthy? Pearso 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Im not even sure he was ever that good anymore. The more i read opinions of him the more i wonder if we all just went for the underdog? He was pants when he first arrived and just as we did with Anichebe last year, we built him up higher when he actually improved a bit. I remember rooting for him the year he won player of the year. But it wasnt because he was this excellent ball playing centre back, but more becuase he went through a few forwards...fairly but hard. this reminded me of CBs from old and i loved the way it made me feel. His diagonal balls were never pinpoint like a beckham or scoles but rather attrition football. Put it in the right area and if you have a willing forward he will get on the end of it. I still struggle to get to grips with the " hes the best CB we have at the club " mentality? I mean seriously? The guy is better than Jags, you know the one...England regular, puts his body on the line week in week out, even when he has a bad game he still puts in 100% and very rarely looks a liability..if ever. Then there is Distin...again you know the bloke, mister ever dependable, mister ever reliable, the freak of human nature. Are we really going to class him as better than those two? No, for me his best position is a holding midfielder. A position where he does not need to head a ball...because hes shit. but can recieve the ball in a calm manner and lay of a nice tidy short pass to one of the ball playing mids like Barkley. Now my next question would be...is he better here than Barry/Gibson or McCarthy? pretty much agree agree with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 See mikeO, everyone is seeing the real johnny now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 (edited) See mikeO, everyone is seeing the real johnny now. Are you related to Hafnia? You guys are both world-class moaners! Edited September 10, 2013 by Quinn31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 See mikeO, everyone is seeing the real johnny now. Don't know why you feel the need to personalise this...but if you can point out to me where I've said that Johnny is a great asset to us currently I'd be really grateful. In fact... Heitinga's defending is nearly as suspect as Kendall's opinion these days (sad to say). The only positive thing I've said about him is this... Two Dutch titles, three cups, Dutch footballer of the year and player of the year at Everton (not to mention a World Cup final) suggests that his 100% is pretty good. He's certainly had shitloads more success in the past decade than Everton. ....which is a fact isn't it? Matt and Sibdane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Are you related to Hafnia? You guys are both world-class moaners! Roughly translated means I tend to disagree with a few of your points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Are you related to Hafnia? You guys are both world-class moaners!Haf is reborn! Even when he did moan, he at least made a relevant point! Quinn31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Haf is reborn! Even when he did moan, he at least made a relevant point! Thank you Matthew! In a totally enthused blue with our new manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Roughly translated means I tend to disagree with a few of your points. Hahahha perhaps. All in good taste though, mate. However, your title does label you the "perennial moaner" of this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Thank you Matthew! In a totally enthused blue with our new manager. that explains all your mates then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 All I'll end with is, without MOANING, is I dont want a ball watching geriatric in the heart of our defence. He's had chance after chance and cannot read the game quick enough.... And he looks stoned all the time..... And he looks like he is wearing a gum shield also..... I think he'll find himself again abroad, but Everton isn't the answer for him. One good season or not. I can say quite confidently that every evertonians heart is in there mouth when he plays at the back..... Soz mikeO, was only steering it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Steering it? To use your words against you, 'get it right you beng' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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