StevO Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 Pat Nevin speaks sense there, sadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 He does, but i still agree with Marco. I could have finished the two open netters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 Gerrard didnt play any better than Downing, Kelly was their MOM. Anyone who thinks Gerrard must have watched the game on Teletext. Fuck sake they only scored the 1st cos of his 'great touch' off his knee standard luckypool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibdane Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 Kelly was good. I thought Suarez was decent, too. Simply put about Gerrard: he took advantage of his opportunities, even if they were more of the "tap-in" standard goals... credit where credit's due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 The fact people saying Gerrard was playing shite is a huge compliment to him - he scored a hat-trick!!! He is a match winner - felli is class, no doubt, but he's not going to single handedly win us games at the highest level - Gerrard has proved he can do this... there for me is the difference. I hate Gerrard and love Fellaini though so that's all that matters!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Kelly was good. I thought Suarez was decent, too. Simply put about Gerrard: he took advantage of his opportunities, even if they were more of the "tap-in" standard goals... credit where credit's due. Thats the sign of the great players, they can make something from the crumbs, they were not amazing goals, but he scored them and that's what is important, they are vastly different players anyway and i find the comparison quite unusual, i never saw where the comparisons with him and Lampard came from they are different players too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) http://www.liverpool...-name_page.html Not entirely sure how Fellaini could possibly be called an unsung hero but impressive stats nonetheless. Edited May 23, 2012 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Long post, where I can reiterate the things I have always believed about Gerrard. In many ways, Gerrard (much like Lampard) is the typical British foootballer: all power, athleticism, brawn, pace, Roy of the Rovers action etc, and adored by people who love to see constant action in football. However, when it comes to the subtleties of the game, those things which are not so easily seen, Gerrard is nothing special. He's never been anything more than average in central midfield, as his positional indiscipline leaves a lot to be desired. His short passing game is not good enough and therefore he cannot control a match. It was my view since circa 2002 or 2003 that Gerrard was the most overrated player I had ever seen. Frankly, the sycophancy directed towards him by the English media was repulsive. They created a myth of him being some sort of perfect footballer when he was never anywhere near that. However, as time went by, I began to think that Gerrard was being misused. In 2009 these suspicions were confirmed, when he was absolutely fantastic in the trequartista role behind Torres. The thing about Gerrard is that despite his inability to control games through short passing, he does have the vision to spot the killer pass further up the park (which is a different skill). This, combined with his other attacking gifts such as shooting, means that he is a much more useful weapon in behind the striker, as Bentiez used him in 'THAT' season. People always talked of Gerrard being an 'all-round player who could play in every position on the park and be world-class' (the second part of that is sheer fantasy, the first is quite fair). The problem is that as a central midfielder he is a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. Having skimmed the thread, someone made a point about rather having specialists in positions, and that's always been my view as well. I always compared Gerrard's time in CM for Liverpool to Milan's Gattuso/Pirlo tandem: Gerrard could do Gattuso's strengths better than Pirlo but not as well as Gattuso, and he could do Pirlo's strengths better than Gattuso but not as well as Pirlo. My point is that I would rather have CMs who complement each other and are the best in the world at what they do, whilst compensating for the others' weaknesses, than one who is moderate in all areas. Again, harping back to Jack of all trades and master of none. For me, Gerrard has always been and will always be a trequartista, in the same manner as a Totti (although nowhere near as good technically). He's unfortunate to have been born in Britain, meaning that whilst he was in his prime (and even now), people tried to shoehorn him into a 442 etc, due to this country's prehistoric tactical view of the game, as compared to more enlightened nations. Had he been born in Italy or Spain, things may well have been different. I always find Arrigo Sacchi's comments very instructive: he said that Gerrard is a great footballer but perhaps not a great player. It's true to an extent - Gerrard has some gifts in terms of playing the game, but he clearly has never been coached properly to maximise those strengths. Despite that, he has looked world-class behind the striker, but he should have been played there his entire career and he may well have gone down as one of the greatest players of his generation (something which he will not be considered as outside of Britain). It's very telling that even Liverpool fans these days have conceded that he is no central midfielder, and should always be used behind the striker. Five to ten years ago these same people had a different opinion in this respect. So, basically, while I still think Gerrard is overrated to a point, I think much more significant than that is that he has been grossly misused his entire career. i do believe that his gifts would have been maximised in a more technically-aware country. The fact that Benitez (who is excellent tactically) is the one who got the most out of him is no coincidence. He needs to be kept out of the middle and used behind the striker where his attacking gifts can be most devastating (and as a by-product the shape of the team won't suffer from his tendency to wander). And as for Fellaini v Gerrard? Fellaini is a much better central player, but not as good in a CAM role. I'd say Fellaini is the more intelligent player, and 'understands the game' better than Gerrard does, but Gerrard is more likely to produce a moment of genius. Edited May 23, 2012 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) my point was that to me they are different players...not really comparable in my eyes...scholes and gerrard are comparable...lampard has an immense goal record in his career..he's made the most of what he has too Scholes and Gerrard are nothing alike, really. In their respective primes Scholes was easily the more talented player, imo. Edited May 23, 2012 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) I sound like a broken record on Gerrard, but I really struggle to see how anyone outside the deluded club over the park rates Gerrard. His best attribute is his long shots, that look good when they go in, but isn't very often for the amount of efforts he has. There's a myth he can tackle, he's below average by premiership standards, same goes for his passing. Next to Alonso it really stood out how far behind world class he is, with his passing being more Phil Neville-esque with floated balls to the corner flag. When he was playing box-to-box he never stopped, but now thats gone and he's never been blessed with pace. Ultimately a player who's reputation is immensely bigger than his talent, and is only over-shadowed by his ego. Head-to-Head with Fellaini would be a very one sided contest. Kevin Davies would be better comparison for Gerrard now, and Henderson is the closest player to the young (jack of all trades little bit shit at everything, master of non hit and hopes) Gerrard. If he'd played for Bolton I doubt people would even talk as him being as good as Davies. Liverpool fans said Gerrard was the best midfielder int he world, and Sissoko was the best defensive mid, then he was shit cos they got Mascherano and he was the best. They only acknowledged Alonso the only WC midfielder after he left, they all wanted Barry. Going a bit west here but basically I'm trying to say Gerrard is a WC player whilst the kopites deem so, with the only basis on he wears a red shirt. A lot of this is very, very true (not the Davies parts), especially the parts about his Hollywood balls (learned them from Beckham I think) and Alonso being the real driving force of the Liverpool team circa 2008-2009. However, in the role behind the striker, for me he is world-class, as I claim above. I do agree though that anyone claiming he is world-class in any other position on the park is kidding themselves. The bit in bold is probably the most accurate comment in the entire thread - as good as he can be at times (and he can be world-class behind the striker), he has never been as good as the English media or his own arrogance and ego believes him to be. They'd have you believe he was a top five player in the world in his prime - which is frankly laughable. Edited May 23, 2012 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Have to agree with Haf here, he is the complete midfielder. As is stands now I would have Mo in the team over him, however if they were both same age I would take Stevie G. He isn't really the complete midfielder though, is he? If he was, his and Liverpool's best season wouldn't have come with him in the hole in a 4231. When Alonso was there he wasn't even the best CM at his own club, never mind being 'the complete mf'. Coincidentally his best England performances have come when he wasn't playing in CM. He lacks the ability to control a game and dictate a tempo, and the ability to play a short passing style. Running about mental and diving into tackles doesn't constitute being a complete midfielder. Someone like Xavi is a complete midfielder, not Gerrard. He gets all the credit for the comeback against Milan, yet the fact of the matter is that Milan pissed all over them until Hamann came on to shore up the middle and Gerrard was removed from central midfield...then things changed. Coincidence? Nah. 'Complete midfielder' implies that he'd be one of the first players you would pick for CM if you were selecting a team to try and go toe-to-toe with Barcelona (whose midfield is the benchmark and pinnacle). In all honesty, his lack of a possession game means he'd be one of the last players I would pick for that sort of team. Edited May 23, 2012 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Scholes and Gerrard are nothing alike, really. In their respective primes Scholes was easily the more talented player, imo. now no...but players who play further up field as scholes did in his younger days and play killer passes, score goals and set up chances...that's comparable in my eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) now no...but players who play further up field as scholes did in his younger days and play killer passes, score goals and set up chances...that's comparable in my eyes Scholes never played as a trequartista in my opinion, like Gerrard did in 2008-2009. Very early in his career, Scholes was more of a goalscoring forward in a 442. He was then converted into a pure CM: a metronome like Xavi. For me he's never been an 'in the hole' player, like Gerrard was in 2009. I can see why you might make the comparison, but for me they're far apart in style. Gerrard is the typical British player - power, athleticism, but strangely also has the eye for a pass further up the park. Scholes has far better crossfield passing, is infinitely superior in controlling games, and is much more intelligent and positionally astute. Scholes is a more continental-type footballer. It is curious that Gerrard can play well as a second striker though. The only comparative abilities I would draw are long-distance shooting and rash tackling. Edited May 23, 2012 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I'd put Fellaini in the top bracket of players for his position Essien, Cambiasso, and Viera. Gerrard doesnt come close to his countrymen Scholes(best I've seen), Gazza, and even Lampard Good shout on Cambiasso - very underrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Not entirely sure how Fellaini could possibly be called an unsung hero but impressive stats nonetheless. Garth Crooks said something similar a few weeks back... "If there is one Everton player who has ploughed away week after week, putting in a proper shift every time, then it is Fellaini. He is never the star but always the grafter, and against Wolves he did that and more." I'll repeat what I said then... He's never the star unless you happen to know a bit about football Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 garth crooks knows fuck all about fuck all though..stone koala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Garth Crooks said something similar a few weeks back... "If there is one Everton player who has ploughed away week after week, putting in a proper shift every time, then it is Fellaini. He is never the star but always the grafter, and against Wolves he did that and more." I'll repeat what I said then... He's never the star unless you happen to know a bit about football Wow... Crooks describing Fellaini as some sort of grafting carthorse does the player a huge disservice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 A lot of this is very, very true, especially the parts about his Hollywood balls (learned them from Beckham I think) and Alonso being the real driving force of the Liverpool team circa 2008-2009. However, in the role behind the striker, for me he is world-class, as I claim above. I do agree though that anyone claiming he is world-class in any other position on the park is kidding themselves. The bit in bold is probably the most accurate comment in the entire thread - as good as he can be at times (and he can be world-class behind the striker), he has never been as good as the English media or his own arrogance and ego believes him to be. They'd have you believe he was a top five player in the world in his prime - which is frankly laughable. Couldnt put him as WC behind the striker, he's miles behind the likes of Ozil, Scholes, and Zidane. Below Matt le Tissier, maybe around Cantona at a push. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Couldnt put him as WC behind the striker, he's miles behind the likes of Ozil, Scholes, and Zidane. Below Matt le Tissier, maybe around Cantona at a push. I meant world-class in terms of his contemporaries. I'd say he performed to a world-class standard in 2008-2009. Whether he could have sustained that we will never know, as injury hit, Benitez and Torres left etc. Cantona is one of the most overrated players in PL history imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I meant world-class in terms of his contemporaries. I'd say he performed to a world-class standard in 2008-2009. Whether he could have sustained that we will never know, as injury hit, Benitez and Torres left etc. Cantona is one of the most overrated players in PL history imo. Thats why I'd put him in his bracket. Or maybe an old Totti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Thats why I'd put him in his bracket. Or maybe an old Totti. Yeah, Totti in his later years is probably similar - still world-class, but not an absolute monster. Totti in his prime was unreal though. I just meant Gerrard was world-class that season and I suspect had he been played there from the start of his career he would developed into a consistent world-class force there i.e. he was misused. Obviously he was nowhere near Totti and Riquelme, Del Piero when he played there etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 LOL, Pete's post got some shit on RAWK http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=87920.msg10025637#msg10025637 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i love rawk havin a laugh at everton thread..they have to project their own failings onto others to make themselves feel better...the most deluded fuckwits in the history of the internet...even i cannot express in words how i feel about them..and the people around here that know me will find that hard to believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i love rawk havin a laugh at everton thread..they have to project their own failings onto others to make themselves feel better...the most deluded fuckwits in the history of the internet...even i cannot express in words how i feel about them..and the people around here that know me will find that hard to believe Some of their delusion regarding Liverpool is laughable. Up there with the red mancs for being deluded about their own club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i'm lovin the laugh at everton thread...i'm hopin for a celeb appearance myself after my rants on them...if i don't appear i may have to try harder..the shit they give us for bein bitter yet read their man u posts..we have a reason to be bitter..they have jealousy..inbred norwegians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i'm lovin the laugh at everton thread...i'm hopin for a celeb appearance myself after my rants on them...if i don't appear i may have to try harder..the shit they give us for bein bitter yet read their man u posts..we have a reason to be bitter..they have jealousy..inbred norwegians I wonder if they'll have a dig at me for my Gerrard posts - personally I thought I was being quite fair. Some of them have said themselves he's not that great in midfield anyway and that his best position is in behind a striker. LOL I hate Man United as well so not going to defend those cunts. But aye, Liverpool fans need to get a grip on the delusion. As I said before, though, they're generally fine on neutral footballing matters. But footballing matters related to Liverpool? Amazingly biased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i'm not a united fan by any stretch but the lack of respect rawk show them is laughable...according to them the whole fa is bent and fergie is a vampire that sucks the blood of the young..if any of that turns out to be true i will let him bite me on the ring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i'm not a united fan by any stretch but the lack of respect rawk show them is laughable...according to them the whole fa is bent and fergie is a vampire that sucks the blood of the young..if any of that turns out to be true i will let him bite me on the ring Hahaha. Ferguson does have too much power and influence though. They take it too far tbh, but Ferguson is a cunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i can't stand the man..but they seem to think the league is bent then why fuckin support it...they get my gander up so bad..and the whole suarez stuff just showed how classless that club really is..as a kid i respected what they had done...they have lost all respect i ever had for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nikica Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) i can't stand the man..but they seem to think the league is bent then why fuckin support it...they get my gander up so bad..and the whole suarez stuff just showed how classless that club really is..as a kid i respected what they had done...they have lost all respect i ever had for them In terms of British teams, I can't be bothered with many of them tbh. Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Aberdeen, Hearts, Celtic, Arsenal, Tottenham - all a bunch of fannies. I like Newcastle and Man City though. Actually sometimes Arsenal don't bother me either - loved Bergkamp and like Wenger too. Edited May 23, 2012 by Nikica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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