marcopaulo Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 ruddy should have got the chance more i feel but was he or is he good enough to dislodge howard? or martyn at the time?: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonKey Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Unfortunately keepers tend not to mature until later on in their careers and go on for a lot longer in their careers to, so younger lads are always going to be at a disadvantage. Neither Wessels or Mucha are/were shite. Both came with decent CV's (international/European experience). We just happen to have have some good 1st choice keepers meaning chances will always be limited. I recall people moaning about Ruddy and Turner, neither were good enough, no confidence etc. Fine Ruddy has gone on to have a decent season for Norwich, but was he good enough to dislodge Howard at the time? Anyway.... back on topic. Good luck to Silva if he moves, decent potential but obviously viewed as not good enough fro us in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Unfortunately keepers tend not to mature until later on in their careers and go on for a lot longer in their careers to, so younger lads are always going to be at a disadvantage. Neither Wessels or Mucha are/were shite. Both came with decent CV's (international/European experience). We just happen to have have some good 1st choice keepers meaning chances will always be limited. I recall people moaning about Ruddy and Turner, neither were good enough, no confidence etc. Fine Ruddy has gone on to have a decent season for Norwich, but was he good enough to dislodge Howard at the time? Anyway.... back on topic. Good luck to Silva if he moves, decent potential but obviously viewed as not good enough fro us in the end. I dont remember people moaning about Ruddy as in the small glimpse we saw of him he did quite well. Was never convinced by Turner on the other hand. I think keepers do need to get first team experience under their belt, and while there is a solid keeper at the club, they should go on loan until they are deemed ready, whether thats 1 year or 5 years down the line. I think that is probably what Moyes invisigaed by bringing in these cheap euro keepers, but ultimately Ruddy probably wanted a stable club and Moyes did the right thing by the player and letting him leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 dont talk to me about not playing reserve keepers we could have been at wembley only for mucha, a really bad keeper at fault for our defeat against chelsea carling cup . wessels was the reserve keeper when we got beat against oldham f a cup a few years ago,we need to to play our best keeper in cup games unless we have a very good understudy.which we havnt. I'm not sure you've read my post right. I haven't said Wessels or Mucha should be playing have I? I've said Wessels was shite and shoudn't have been brought in in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Thats the problem with keepers though. In theory and injuries asides you only need one. It does no good to chop and change your keeper and they dont ever really need resting. Bringing a player in for a cup game to "give him a game" adds unwanted pressure to the player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 I want Kaspar Schmeical if Leicester don't come up. Maybe in a swap deal involving Silva? (seemlessy bringing us back on topic!!! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 maybe i did read it wrong but we do need a good young keeper,even though howard isnt crap as we say hes had some dodgy games this season,as was shown yesterday. i think he took his eye off the ball and was watching the player coming in on his left,even though it was a bad bounce he should have saved that. I think we did have a good young keeper in Ruddy but he was never given a go because we brought in experience. Except that experience was absolutely shite. And that is my point. Young keepers should stay away from this club while Moyes is manager because they won't even get a bench role. They won't play in cup games. They'll just fade away at this club without ever getting an opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 keepers are really hard to assess.look at the trouble united are having,regarding our keepers of past how many have made it other than ruddy,even ruddy made the breakthrough in the championship. nev southall was mid twentys before he came through. So you give them a bench role and play them in the cups so you can assess them to see how they'd cope. The bench role shows them what preparation you have to go through on a matchday at the highest level so they're ready for those cup games or if they're needed if the No. 1 keeper gets injured. What we do is all wrong, IMO. We stick them in the reserves or loan them out to 200 different clubs for a month or two at a time without ever giving them a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 So you give them a bench role and play them in the cups so you can assess them to see how they'd cope. The bench role shows them what preparation you have to go through on a matchday at the highest level so they're ready for those cup games or if they're needed if the No. 1 keeper gets injured. What we do is all wrong, IMO. We stick them in the reserves or loan them out to 200 different clubs for a month or two at a time without ever giving them a chance. Surely its better for their development if they are out on loan playing week in week out than it is sitting on our bench. As someone else said earlier, I am dead against trying keepers out in Cup games. The cups are our only realistic chance of trophies/European football so I would much rather we set out to win every cup game we play in ie field our strongest side Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Surely its better for their development if they are out on loan playing week in week out than it is sitting on our bench. As someone else said earlier, I am dead against trying keepers out in Cup games. The cups are our only realistic chance of trophies/European football so I would much rather we set out to win every cup game we play in ie field our strongest side wonder why that is then....anything to do with pathetic owners and negative tactics all the time, so we have to wait till we play weaker opposition and stand a chance of getting somewhere, it's a vicious circle that won't change under the current regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 wonder why that is then....anything to do with pathetic owners and negative tactics all the time, so we have to wait till we play weaker opposition and stand a chance of getting somewhere, it's a vicious circle that won't change under the current regime. Unless you know someone who is going to come in and spend upwards of £400M that is a fact of life, no matter what tactics the manager uses, so you better get used to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Surely its better for their development if they are out on loan playing week in week out than it is sitting on our bench. As someone else said earlier, I am dead against trying keepers out in Cup games. The cups are our only realistic chance of trophies/European football so I would much rather we set out to win every cup game we play in ie field our strongest side Not when that's all they do and are never given a go. What good did loaning Ruddy out to club after club do? It didn't matter that he got good reports about him from every club he was at did it? We still brought in absolute shite. It's just something that bugs me so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 I wonder how barkley would do out on loan??? Let's be honest - I fancy he would have developed more pulling the strings at Blackpool than he would getting splinters at GP or playing against ressie players lesser quality than what he faces for the under 21's... I wonder how many times he's run the show in training against Gibson, Neville - who get first team berths ahead of him at the moment... People argue about him having missed alot of development with his injury - I would say more damage has been done since pre season - maybe his Nurse ratched's labotomy hasn't worked yet and he along with drenthe do not understand the words "launch it" "hoof it" "get rid" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 If he goes out, I want it to be at Prem level (imo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 If he goes out, I want it to be at Prem level (imo) I'll be honest, how on earth he hasn't been played for a reasonable time since blackburn is a complete and utter joke. From reading match reports of ressie games and under 18 games alone he has been splitting defences open with slide rule passes galore... I will say this again - PUT NEVILLE IN ONE OF THOSE GAMES AND HE WOULD LOOK THE DINOSAUR THAT HE IS. Sad fact of life is that the yound bucks come along - bigger, faster, stronger they have learned the tricks from the pioneers (they were busy perfecting ronaldo step overs and chops, busy learning gerrards runs from midfield, ronaldinho flip flaps) they then come up against the seasoned pros in training who have no idea that kids so young have these things perfected. Did gazza have to wait till he was 25 before he could master the Cryff turn that he pulled off against the inventors own country in Italia 90 that had people off their feet? Did Rooney not do the Zidanne 360 spin against the master himself in euro 2004? The beauty of the game is that when the pioneers create a bit of magic, the young gazzas, rooney's etc go out in the park and perfect the trick that only youngsters have the 'development time' to master. They then take this to the game and no doubt bring a bit of their own invention that other kids follow. What we have witnessed with barkley IMO is a manager who has exercised over caution of a talent that needs to be expressed rather than controlled. He did the same with Rodwell, and tried to do the same with Rooney - but he couldn't tame that one. In my opinion Rooney knew he couldn't flourish under Moyes and it made the move so much easier for him. I fear the same with barkley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 As far as I am aware the loan window is only still open for Championship & below, so Barkey can no longer go to a Prem team. If he isnt going to be playing some part in our season, then he has to go out on loan IMO and to a decent Champ team (I think he would be perfect for Soton although they have their own decent young lads) and not to the level that some of our lads have gone to. I have heard the likes of Wallace & Baxter speak about their loans on twitter etc, and they seem to mature so quickly as they realise that they have to fight for every point because it really can make the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 haf hes 18 not 25 hes also been injured so dont worry he will get his chance,probably for gibson if he doesnt pull his finger out. Yep but so is oxlade chamberlain, unfortunately moyes doesn't share wengers faith in young talent. Gibson worryingly does seem to have a bit of attitude issue, early days but he hasn't really impressed too much. First game promised a little but seems very pedestrian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 haf hes 18 not 25 hes also been injured so dont worry he will get his chance,probably for gibson if he doesnt pull his finger out. I get the "he was injured for a year" argument. That will certainly have slowed his development down. But I think that even with that injury having hampered him, he's already a better player than Neville, Cahill etc. Based on the little I saw of him (highlights from the DC United game, the full pre season games against Villareal and Werder and his appearences in the league this far) I'd say he's one of the better players at the club, not someone that should play with the U18 squad. He has the awareness, vision, pass, control, the balance to glide past opponents ... to play in the hole. That are all things Cahill doesn't have. Now that Osman is out injured, I think Barkley should be starting, but he isn't even on the bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Yep but so is oxlade chamberlain, unfortunately moyes doesn't share wengers faith in young talent. Gibson worryingly does seem to have a bit of attitude issue, early days but he hasn't really impressed too much. First game promised a little but seems very pedestrian. Wenger has got so much more faith that he has started the lad in a massive one Premiership game this season, but to be fair he has doubled that in substitute appearances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wenger has got so much more faith that he has started the lad in a massive one Premiership game this season, but to be fair he has doubled that in substitute appearances Wenger loaned an 18-19 year old jack wilshere out, when many thought he should have been playing at Arsenal, he came back, got another pre-season under his belt and was a key player until he got injured. If we loan Ross to a team like Southampton, Blackpool or Cardiff, even just for a month I think it would do him the world of good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wenger loaned an 18-19 year old jack wilshere out, when many thought he should have been playing at Arsenal, he came back, got another pre-season under his belt and was a key player until he got injured. If we loan Ross to a team like Southampton, Blackpool or Cardiff, even just for a month I think it would do him the world of good. Me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 didn't moyes play rooney for practically a whole season at 17? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Wenger has got so much more faith that he has started the lad in a massive one Premiership game this season, but to be fair he has doubled that in substitute appearances 5 appearances and two goals, in a team hardly lacking any quality, Barkley on the other hand??? Yes you guessed it, moyes can't see him being better than the mighty Phil Neville, big difference. Barkley is better than Gibson, Neville, Cahill, osman, anichebe, someone tell me he isn't... And please don't tell me moyes sees him in training... If moyes seen a London bus coming at him he would probably tell you it's green the crap he's been spouting recently. Rooney at 17 was our best player by a mile, yet was used sporadically, played out of position, subbed etc. generally people at the time were bewildered in moyes overdosing the cotton wool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 when isaid hes been injured i mean this season,hes only just back and he was on the bench last home game. Now that argument I can't understand. He's only been injured for a couple of weeks so that doesn't excuse the rest of the season. And then despite Osman and Rodwell being injured, he didn't even make the bench against Wigan. These were the subs: Mucha, Duffy, Neville, Gueye, Drenthe, Anichebe, Jelavic. He has a goal keeper, he has a centre back, he has a full back, he has two wingers and two strikers. No midfield players. I don't think you can illustrate "not giving him a chance" much clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftaylor Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wenger has got so much more faith that he has started the lad in a massive one Premiership game this season, but to be fair he has doubled that in substitute appearances Cup Games and CL games as well. Gervinho and Walcott have been for the most part healthy all season. Can't say the same for our midfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 5 appearances and two goals, in a team hardly lacking any quality, Barkley on the other hand??? Yes you guessed it, moyes can't see him being better than the mighty Phil Neville, big difference. Barkley is better than Gibson, Neville, Cahill, osman, anichebe, someone tell me he isn't... And please don't tell me moyes sees him in training... If moyes seen a London bus coming at him he would probably tell you it's green the crap he's been spouting recently. Rooney at 17 was our best player by a mile, yet was used sporadically, played out of position, subbed etc. generally people at the time were bewildered in moyes overdosing the cotton wool. Which people exactly? Ferguson has done exactly the same, is he inept as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 didn't he play pretty much every league game he was here for in the 2 years? that's hardly sporadic is it...unless i'm thinkin the word means summat else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 there was a rumor a while back that if Barkley played so many games (don't remember the exact number) before his next birthday, then we will have to pay him £150k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Blimey, some poor memories on here, he rarely played 90 minutes, of the 67 league games he appeared in he started 27 on the bench, 40% of his games started on the bench... this at a time when he was actually playing for England - arguably the most important player! The games he started he rarely finished. Dunc, "people" - being the fans were moaning about it, http://www.telegraph...mark-again.html http://www.highbeam....-111486515.html For the record Rooney wasn't a 17 year old in the sense of others, there was no way he could face burn out, physically he was 4 years advanced of his time. Dunc, you really do need to start using google and wiki (like your moyes and strikers opinion) - Rooney is his first season at Man United even with the quality competition had 41 appearances with only 6 starting as a sub... Edited February 8, 2012 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 so he started 40 games in 2 seasons for us? is that really so bad? he was a kid remember..i think we used him correctly..hardly spoiled his talent by not playing him that much as you say did we Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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