duncanmckenzieismagic Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 yeah i would say Nev was, and he gets benched, Hibbert, Anichebe, Cahill, but thats a whole other debate, that has been discussed before on here as for your post, well i hav'nt been to a game this season, as i live down south, but to me its Howard that does the shouting and pointing not Jags, and i just think he needs a few games out, and let Heitinga have a go, nothing wrong with that is there, its called rotating the squad, prior to moving down here a few years ago, i went home and away when i could and was still based in Liverpool, its just to far now, trains are way to expenisve I wasnt trying to question your loyalty and I hope it didnt come accross that way. The point I was trying to make is that you dont see the full picture when your watching it on the box. Jags never stops talking all the way through the game and most of it is off the ball so that would explain why you disagree that he marshalls our back four Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Surely the point of having a squad is to rotate players dependent upon fitness and form. His form is less than we have come to expect from him as he has been outstanding before. You dont become a bad player overnight and I feel sure he can attain high levels again but for now I think he needs a kick up the backside and the only way I see this happening is a spell on the bench and then earn your place back in the side. There were several mistakes yesterday, his poor clearance early doors created a sitter for Suarez, and we could and should have been punished but for a piss poor finish by Suarez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Jags does to much shouting and not enough concentrating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 If we are willing to drop our captain, Phil Neville for poor play, we should definitely be willing to bench Jags considering a Dutch National Centerback is waiting behind him... It's called competition. Every player should have to earn a starting spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubecula Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 I agree they get paid enough , let them earn their keep by competing to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 Distin has probably been our best player to be fair. Worryingly he has made his far share of clangers as well! A large majority of goals we have conceeded have been down to one of them cocking up. From what I see on TV, and I do make a point of looking, Jagielka does do a lot of talking, but as soon as the mistakes start to happen, he slowly receeds into his shell. He has the rabbit in the headlights look in his eyes, and the mistakes continue. There were several examples yesterday where he made mistakes, right from the word go, and he always looked edgy. In balance he did also do some good stuff yesterday, but the good things he did are what should be expected of an international centre half, and maybe that is the problem. During that year he got injured, he was playing like one of the best centre halves I have ever seen. His reading of the game was superb and the way he dealt with Torres consistently was as good as anyone in the game. He is barely a shadow of that player now, and he deserves to be dropped. Its not like this has only just happened, its been a while, and the partnership with him and Distin quite simply hasnt been reliable, and Heitinga deserves a run of games (at least 4) in Jagielkas place. On a side note, related to our leaky defence, I still think a lot of the problems come from not getting enough protection from the midfield. In the early Moyes years we had Carsley do a very underated job, and when we struggled to find a suitable replacement, Neville stepped in and did admirably, and our best performances over the last 3 seasons, have been when Fellaini has dropped in that role (I think even Osman did it a couple of times). We have been putting to much pressure on the guys at the back, and maybe that is a reason for both of them making cock ups (and even Heitinga when he has played, he hasnt been as good as he was in his first season) . We need to change something, because at the moment, we have to score at least once to get a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) Worryingly he has made his far share of clangers as well! A large majority of goals we have conceeded have been down to one of them cocking up. From what I see on TV, and I do make a point of looking, Jagielka does do a lot of talking, but as soon as the mistakes start to happen, he slowly receeds into his shell. He has the rabbit in the headlights look in his eyes, and the mistakes continue. There were several examples yesterday where he made mistakes, right from the word go, and he always looked edgy. In balance he did also do some good stuff yesterday, but the good things he did are what should be expected of an international centre half, and maybe that is the problem. During that year he got injured, he was playing like one of the best centre halves I have ever seen. His reading of the game was superb and the way he dealt with Torres consistently was as good as anyone in the game. He is barely a shadow of that player now, and he deserves to be dropped. Its not like this has only just happened, its been a while, and the partnership with him and Distin quite simply hasnt been reliable, and Heitinga deserves a run of games (at least 4) in Jagielkas place. On a side note, related to our leaky defence, I still think a lot of the problems come from not getting enough protection from the midfield. In the early Moyes years we had Carsley do a very underated job, and when we struggled to find a suitable replacement, Neville stepped in and did admirably, and our best performances over the last 3 seasons, have been when Fellaini has dropped in that role (I think even Osman did it a couple of times). We have been putting to much pressure on the guys at the back, and maybe that is a reason for both of them making cock ups (and even Heitinga when he has played, he hasnt been as good as he was in his first season) . We need to change something, because at the moment, we have to score at least once to get a point. Easily fixed if not bettered, just play Fellaini in the Carsley role every game Edited October 2, 2011 by pete0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iggy Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 You can argue that it will hurt his confidence if he is dropped, and it's best to play through it, but for me, he is a professional player and part of a squad, and other players of equal standing are just as deserving of the position, and the chance to make it their own. He could be having a spate of bad luck too, but jump back in the reserves and play out of it, and then await your chance again. Heitinga should get his chance now. I know sometimes Moyes plays Heitinga in the middle, but he must surely feel the position should be his now. It's not good for morale for players to never get picked, especially when you consider that Heitinga is a regular International, and Jags isn't. Too many mistakes for me. Nothing personal Phil, but you can't keep making mistakes and keep your place. We have a squad. This for me........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 tbh, as much as Jags has not been the best surely a more appropriate debate would be, should Hibbert be dropped? that game on saturday showed how little he offers the team, just mindless hoof balls up the field because he can't pass it properly, and the fact he could have been sent off when we were already down to 10 men, he has long had is day imo, he will cost us big time one of these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) tbh, as much as Jags has not been the best surely a more appropriate debate would be, should Hibbert be dropped? that game on saturday showed how little he offers the team, just mindless hoof balls up the field because he can't pass it properly, and the fact he could have been sent off when we were already down to 10 men, he has long had is day imo, he will cost us big time one of these days Pris, I still think Hibbert is one of the best defensive Right Backs in the Prem. He's been in outstanding form too, which is why Nev has found the bench. In the derby, he had 2 against him to be fair to him, and one of those was Bellamy who is absolute class on his day, and had fresh legs too. There was nothing wrong with his cross for Velios' header either. Baines on the other hand messed up with both goals, so why blame Hibbert? Edited October 3, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Pris, I still think Hibbert is one of the best defensive Right Backs in the Prem. He's been in outstanding form too, which is why Nev has found the bench. In the derby, he had 2 against him to be fair to him, and one of those was Bellamy who is absolute class on his day, and had fresh legs too. There was nothing wrong with his cross for Velios' header either. Baines on the other hand messed up with both goals, so why blame Hibbert? Tbf, Hibbert could also be said to be at fault for their opener as the cross for Carroll came down his side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQu6_lDN-jo Look at how useless Jags positioning is, and how easy Carroll loses Baines. Nothing to do with Hibbert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 http://www.youtube.c...h?v=nQu6_lDN-jo Look at how useless Jags positioning is, and how easy Carroll loses Baines. Nothing to do with Hibbert. Scrap that, Neville is far more at fault than Hibbert. Captain Fantastic leaving Tony to deal with 2 players running at him . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hibbo is left isolated but he doesnt make a decision on what he is going to do and ends up doing nothing. Neville obviously doesnt help out when he should have done, his legs were fresh and he should have closed one of them down. Baines gets blatantly checked by Caroll which creates the space for the shot although I guess he does have time to regain his position. WTF Jags is upto I dont know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Scrap that, Neville is far more at fault than Hibbert. Captain Fantastic leaving Tony to deal with 2 players running at him . That's my point in my post above. Hibbert can't do nothing about it. The positioning of others leaves him unprotected. If he chases Bellamy, the other attacker moves straight in. He has to ensure the ball goes wide, and he does his job well. Bellamy is lightning though, so not much chance of being in 2 places at once to stop the inward route 'and' the cross. Jags is in 2 minds, and is dragged out by the movement of the number 7, before ending in no mans land, and Baines is shown why Carroll is so dangerous by being nudged off the position, leaving Carroll with all the room in the world. Nev is caught well out of position right at the beginning. Great goal by Liverpool, and bad defending from Everton unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Hibbo is left isolated but he doesnt make a decision on what he is going to do and ends up doing nothing. Neville obviously doesnt help out when he should have done, his legs were fresh and he should have closed one of them down. Baines gets blatantly checked by Caroll which creates the space for the shot although I guess he does have time to regain his position. WTF Jags is upto I dont know He can't commit. If he covers Bellamy the attacker has a shot on goal. All he can do is wait for the pass wide and hope to block the cross. That's his job. He can't cover both. Any good defender would do exactly as Hibbert did. Had Nev gotten there quicker, he would have freed Hibbert to drop down. You can clearly see Hibbert checking his flank, but Nev is nowhere. Jags is the cross stopper, but ends up hopelessly confused and pauses not once, but twice. Edited October 3, 2011 by Avinalaff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 He can't commit. If he covers Bellamy the attacker has a shot on goal. All he can do is wait for the pass wide and hope to block the cross. That's his job. He can't cover both. Any good defender would do exactly as Hibbert did. Had Nev gotten there quicker, he would have freed Hibbert to drop down. You can clearly see Hibbert checking his flank, but Nev is nowhere. Jags is the cross stopper, but ends up hopelessly confused. I disagree to a point, eventually Neville gets his ass in gear and comes to close down but hibbo has lost his man and the cross gets put in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Im sorry, when you see it from the other angle Neville is nowhere near. I clear Hibbo of any blame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Pris, I still think Hibbert is one of the best defensive Right Backs in the Prem. He's been in outstanding form too, which is why Nev has found the bench. In the derby, he had 2 against him to be fair to him, and one of those was Bellamy who is absolute class on his day, and had fresh legs too. There was nothing wrong with his cross for Velios' header either. Baines on the other hand messed up with both goals, so why blame Hibbert? its a team game though, and each player needs to contribute for 90mins, im just fed up of seeing Hibbert hoof the ball every time it comes to his feet, he cant pass it 6 yards across the ground!! its a hoof upfront usually towards the opponents corner flag every time, its very sunday league imo but yes not really his fault fro the goal, more Jags/ Neville, dont know what the pair of them were doing tbh Edited October 3, 2011 by theprisoner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 its a team game though, and each player needs to contribute for 90mins, im just fed up of seeing Hibbert hoof the ball every time it comes to his feet, he cant pass it 6 yards across the ground!! its a hoof upfront usually towards the opponents corner flag every time, its very sunday league imo but yes not really his fault fro the goal, more Jags/ Neville, dont know what the pair of them were doing tbh Hibbos cross for Velios against Wigan was excellent. I think his distribution is much better than Nevilles and offers us a little more going forward. He has been one of the players I couldnt really criticise thus far this season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Hibbos cross for Velios against Wigan was excellent. I think his distribution is much better than Nevilles and offers us a little more going forward. He has been one of the players I couldnt really criticise thus far this season bingo. It takes exceptional form to dislodge a Moyes favourite, especially the captain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 bingo. It takes exceptional form to dislodge a Moyes favourite, especially the captain! He has done his job quietly and efficiently so far. very under rated for us. As is Osman, it all went to pot when ozzie went off and Neville came on Saturday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 He has done his job quietly and efficiently so far. very under rated for us. As is Osman, it all went to pot when ozzie went off and Neville came on Saturday Agreed very much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 So that settles it. I'm telling Jags he's benched for the Chelsea game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 He has done his job quietly and efficiently so far. very under rated for us. As is Osman, it all went to pot when ozzie went off and Neville came on Saturday Was ideal opportunity for barkley to come on, Neville is finished at premier league level IMO. Offers nothing other than finger pointing, hoofs and a bit of coaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Was ideal opportunity for barkley to come on, Neville is finished at premier league level IMO. Offers nothing other than finger pointing, hoofs and a bit of coaching. I agree to a point but to intorduce barkley when we are playing with 10 in the derby match, big ask for a young lad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germanblue Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 So that settles it. I'm telling Jags he's benched for the Chelsea game. fortunately, this is a forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codders78 Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 fortunately, this is a forum. Avinalaff is David Moyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted October 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Avinalaff is David Moyes Shhhhhh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 bingo. It takes exceptional form to dislodge a Moyes favourite, especially the captain! Dont forget Hibbo is also one of Moyes' favourites. Not related to you in this example Matt, but people using Neville as evidence that Moyes drops his favourites, seem to forget that Hibbert is also a big favourite of his. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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