Moyes

[Avinalaff]

Av, no one's asking them to save us though. It'd just be nice for Moyes to give a few of them a go in place of the senior players who clearly are not pulling their weight. There are a fair few of them who are stinking out Goodison each and every week and don't even look like they're putting the effort in. The youngsters would at least give the effort, and in Barkley's case we know he has the quality and hopefully this would show itself as well. They couldn't do worse than some of the shite that's been served up for us could they?

 

I'm not asking for a team full of kids, but to have them supplement the senior players who are pulling their weight so they have experienced players around them to help them grow. They can't grow getting splinters, we can't find out if they're good enough to play at this level if they're never thrown in at the deep end.

 

I also think it's totally the wrong message to send to any youngsters on our books that senior players can play like dog shit and it not put their place under threat when there are players who can replace them.

 

For someone who isn't all about the winning or finishing high up the league I thought you'd be the one championing dropping us dropping some of our donkeys for young bucks!

 

I'm all for kids Romey. I just want kids to have the time scale needed to develop. Putting them into the first team too soon equates to sending them down the pit from days gone by just because they were strong enough to dig. They should be able to come into consideration while the seas are calm, not when the storms are in full flow. I agree there are some players not good enough, but the first port of call for Moyes should be to substitute them, or bench them, in favour of a senior player, but he does not have the luxury of this.

 

For example: Alex Ferguson is annoyed with Nani, so he brings on Valencia. When all is well, he gives a young lad a go, and weens him into the team. David Moyes is fed up with Osman, so he brings on who? Our options are slim. The kids don't have time to be weaned, and instead are thrown into the deep end. Moyes is trying to nurture them, but fan demands are high, and options are low.

 

Ideal situation? Choose from a number of top class stars.

Real life situation? Put on another average player, or play a kid.

 

We can't say Moyes does not give kids a chance. We have Rodwell, Anichebe, Gosling, Vellios, Barkley, Coleman, Vaughan etc who were all put in from a young age. Nobody knows why Barkley hasn't been used, but there 'will' be a reason.

 

 

this is a squad he built, if he doesnt have the players in positions to suit then that must be his fault. he says players only leave on his say so after all.

 

yes he is resourcful in the transfer market, buying cheap and selling expensive. but i dont see these ideas you talk of. one formation and one style of play is not ideas in my mind, its one dimensional.

 

you have been supporting everton long enough, so you must know the glory days of yesteryear, we played some great great football under kendall in the 80's, im pretty sure he was resourceful too, he didnt buy a team of super stars. but he knew more than one way to play football.

 

Kendall had backing in the market Steve, and also didn't have to contend with billionaire investment, or Sky 4 money. It's a different game now. As much as we played great football under Kendall, it was for a short period, and we played some proper shite under him too, and were almost relegated twice. What of all the other managers since Kendall? Why must Moyes be compared to our best period regarding silverware? Why not compare him to the lows before he took over?

 

This is 'not' the squad he built. This is the best squad he could get with the money he had. Please don't make it appear that Moyes would choose these players if he had a choice. If it weren't for Moyes God knows how shit our team would be.

[StevO]

You said Moyes is the most resourceful you have seen in your time, backing in the market is irrelevant of that. Im comparing Moyes to him as you said Moyes is the most resourceful, I think you have seen a more resourceful manager. You made the comparison to every other manager, I just highlighted one of them.

 

But this is the team he built though, just because he hasnt had unlimited funds it does not take away that fact that he built this team. Im not making it appear he has chosen these over all of the other players in the world regardless of price, but he did chose them.

 

And if it wasnt for Moyes, we have no idea how bad or good our team might be, it would just be a guess.

[Romey 1878]

I'm all for kids Romey. I just want kids to have the time scale needed to develop. Putting them into the first team too soon equates to sending them down the pit from days gone by just because they were strong enough to dig. They should be able to come into consideration while the seas are calm, not when the storms are in full flow. I agree there are some players not good enough, but the first port of call for Moyes should be to substitute them, or bench them, in favour of a senior player, but he does not have the luxury of this.

 

For example: Alex Ferguson is annoyed with Nani, so he brings on Valencia. When all is well, he gives a young lad a go, and weens him into the team. David Moyes is fed up with Osman, so he brings on who? Our options are slim. The kids don't have time to be weaned, and instead are thrown into the deep end. Moyes is trying to nurture them, but fan demands are high, and options are low.

 

Ideal situation? Choose from a number of top class stars.

Real life situation? Put on another average player, or play a kid.

 

We can't say Moyes does not give kids a chance. We have Rodwell, Anichebe, Gosling, Vellios, Barkley, Coleman, Vaughan etc who were all put in from a young age. Nobody knows why Barkley hasn't been used, but there 'will' be a reason.

 

 

Be that as it may, these are the options he has.

 

His tried and tested players are not doing the business so he simply he has to try something different, if that something different is an 18 year old in place of Osman, Cahill, Saha etc etc then so be it. It might not improve our results but you can always bring the senior players back in after a game or two and being dropped could/should give them the light bulb moment that there are players there to take their place and they better pull their finger out when they do play.

 

These young players could even grab their opportunity and displace those players permanently and then we would have senior back up to them to come off the bench. They could do all of their development actually on the pitch for us and grow while playing.

 

You used Man United as an example of having senior players to throw on if something wasn't working, and that young players are allowed to grow there because of the senior players around them, but what about when they had their team of kids (Beckham, Butt, Giggs etc)? They didn't do too badly getting thrown in at the deep end did they? Now, I'm not saying we'll go on to dominate English football for the next 20 years but that it may not be such a bad thing for some of our kids to come in to a pressurised environment.

 

I want to finish high up the league but if giving the likes of Barkley an extended run in the side to see how they'd handle meant we finished quite lowly then I'd accept it.

[Avinalaff]

You said Moyes is the most resourceful you have seen in your time, backing in the market is irrelevant of that. Im comparing Moyes to him as you said Moyes is the most resourceful, I think you have seen a more resourceful manager. You made the comparison to every other manager, I just highlighted one of them.

 

But this is the team he built though, just because he hasnt had unlimited funds it does not take away that fact that he built this team. Im not making it appear he has chosen these over all of the other players in the world regardless of price, but he did chose them.

 

And if it wasnt for Moyes, we have no idea how bad or good our team might be, it would just be a guess.

 

Steve, when you dress in the morning, do you wear the clothes you've always dreamed of, or do you make do with what you can afford? If you attend a function, are you the best dressed, or do you realise the lads wearing Armani and Versace are a bit richer than you? Asking Moyes to be successful is the same as asking George to cut your suit as well as Saville Row taylors. Still, they're 'your' clothes. You chose them. If it wasn't for that low paid job we have, we have no idea how sharp our suit might be? No?

[Avinalaff]

Be that as it may, these are the options he has.

 

His tried and tested players are not doing the business so he simply he has to try something different, if that something different is an 18 year old in place of Osman, Cahill, Saha etc etc then so be it. It might not improve our results but you can always bring the senior players back in after a game or two and being dropped could/should give them the light bulb moment that there are players there to take their place and they better pull their finger out when they do play.

 

These young players could even grab their opportunity and displace those players permanently and then we would have senior back up to them to come off the bench. They could do all of their development actually on the pitch for us and grow while playing.

 

You used Man United as an example of having senior players to throw on if something wasn't working, and that young players are allowed to grow there because of the senior players around them, but what about when they had their team of kids (Beckham, Butt, Giggs etc)? They didn't do too badly getting thrown in at the deep end did they? Now, I'm not saying we'll go on to dominate English football for the next 20 years but that it may not be such a bad thing for some of our kids to come in to a pressurised environment.

 

I want to finish high up the league but if giving the likes of Barkley an extended run in the side to see how they'd handle meant we finished quite lowly then I'd accept it.

 

He has given kids extended runs though.

 

Rodwell? Gosling? Anichebe? Coleman? Barkley had a string of games too until what ever happened happened (not sure on that one) and Vellios has been getting in too.

[Romey 1878]

He has given kids extended runs though.

 

Rodwell? Gosling? Anichebe? Coleman? Barkley had a string of games too until what ever happened happened (not sure on that one) and Vellios has been getting in too.

 

 

I'm talking about now, as a way to give the seniors a kick up the arse.

[Avinalaff]

I'm talking about now, as a way to give the seniors a kick up the arse.

 

Why don't we just suck it and see?

 

If we want long term success we must be patient and stop thinking about short term gain. Let's see what happens in January, and how we finish at the end of the season. What happens in between is anybody's guess, but if we try to find positives, rather than negatives, the period will be a happier one.

[StevO]

Steve, when you dress in the morning, do you wear the clothes you've always dreamed of, or do you make do with what you can afford? If you attend a function, are you the best dressed, or do you realise the lads wearing Armani and Versace are a bit richer than you? Asking Moyes to be successful is the same as asking George to cut your suit as well as Saville Row taylors. Still, they're 'your' clothes. You chose them. If it wasn't for that low paid job we have, we have no idea how sharp our suit might be? No?

 

i completely agree, but i chose this suit, so i cant complain about it.

[Avinalaff]

i completely agree, but i chose this suit, so i cant complain about it.

 

So why complain about the suit Moyes chose then?

[Romey 1878]

Why don't we just suck it and see?

 

If we want long term success we must be patient and stop thinking about short term gain. Let's see what happens in January, and how we finish at the end of the season. What happens in between is anybody's guess, but if we try to find positives, rather than negatives, the period will be a happier one.

 

 

We've played 13 games this season, almost half a season, I think we've been sucking and seeing for long enough tbh. Nothing is different from last season either, in terms of our style of play, players not really looking arsed etc.

 

Let's see what happens in January? We have no money so we know what's happening in January. Let's see what happens at the end of the season... . Well, the season will be over and we'll still have the same problems! We'll come into next season with those problems and you'll say let's see what happens in January and the end of the season that season also.

 

There comes a point when you have to bite the bullet and do something when it actually needs to be done, be pro-active, give us a better season THIS season, attempt to fix the problems THIS season.

[StevO]

So why complain about the suit Moyes chose then?

 

the shirt doesnt match and hasnt even bothered with a Windsor knot in his tie!

[adziom]

As Romey mentioned above, Moyes has two choices:

A) Keep playing Saha, Cahill, and other senior squad players who aren't performing, cross his fingers and hope they come good, which they haven't thus far.

B] Give some of the kids a chance, not all at once, not necessarily from the start, but give Gueye/Barkley/Stracqualursi the second half, or the last half hour, and maybe the odd start, just to freshen things up.

 

A) has two possible results:

1 - We keep seeing gutless, monotonous, depressing performances like we saw against Stoke on Sunday.

or 2 - Magically, Saha, Cahill and co suddenly find some motivation and return to form all at once and we find ourselves back in the top half.

 

B] Also has two results:

1 - The occasional appearances of all of our bench players proves to be an unmitigated disaster, everything they do is wrong and they single handedly lose us the game 5-0.

2 - The senior players suddenly realise there is some competition for places, the team benefits from a greater variety of faces in the squad, players start to take responsibility and try to make something happen instead of knocking the ball around the middle of the pitch until Baines puts a cross in.

 

My point being, at the moment we're doing badly, if we keep doing what we're doing, we'll almost certainly keep doing badly. Change it around a little bit, who knows? We might still do badly, we might even do a little bit worse, but also, it might improve things, and I'd definitely rather see a change and a bit of a risk, even if it goes wrong.

Edited December 6, 2011 by adziom

[Hafnia]

Relative to the options available Moyes does not give youth a chance, Coleman was almost demanded for as a right mid by fans as he isn't a full back - how long did that penny take to drop with Moyes. Rodwell despite playing like a rolls royce in his preferred position was messed around, played on the right hand side and his form dropped like a stone. Fellaini was played out of position needlessly, gosling had the odd cameo and was never good enough.

 

The one player has given far too much of a chance to is Anichebe - absolutely godsmacking, he plays him anywhere he can and the reason being is that he does a better job at defending from the front, the fact that he couldn't trap a bag of cement or pass a ball is irrelevant. The point is that Moyes development of youngsters is very much overstated, he had Rooney on the bench more often than not when he was easily the best player in club - already physically mature and technically brilliant.

 

We have nothing to lose by playing these kids compared to the so called experienced pros at the moment.

[EFC-Paul]

If Steve is sat in a swanky restaurant in the suit he chose I'm pretty sure He wouldn't be happy paying top dollar to be spoon fed shite as fans do. I'm pretty sure He would question the manager of said establishment.

 

You can make all the comparisons you can think of but they don't generate or bring the same level emotion and tie's that football do.

[pete0]

the shirt doesnt match and hasnt even bothered with a Windsor knot in his tie!

Irrelevant but i've always struggled to do the full Windsor and have to settle for the less symmetrical half-Windor does my nut in.

 

Any how... just to carry on the clothing analogy; Cahills a old torn wooly jumper, whereas Barkleys a new Armani suit that the owners to scared to wear

[Avinalaff]

Laughing here

[EFC-Paul]

Well i think Avin is a pink g-string and he fits well in Moyes's crack haha couln't help myself

[Avinalaff]

Pink huh? I like pink. Pink is good.

[flaminfox]

I guarantee that moyes know what his is doing with the kids and when the time come they will come and show what they can do

[StevO]

Irrelevant but i've always struggled to do the full Windsor and have to settle for the less symmetrical half-Windor does my nut in.

 

Any how... just to carry on the clothing analogy; Cahills a old torn wooly jumper, whereas Barkleys a new Armani suit that the owners to scared to wear

 

I can manage the full windsor, but only on special occassions. half windsor is the daily for me.

[Avinalaff]

I guarantee that moyes know what his is doing with the kids and when the time come they will come and show what they can do

 

That's very short sighted. Don't you know he checks this forum daily in order to decide on who to play, where and when? Get a grip son.

[StevO]

That's very short sighted. Don't you know he checks this forum daily in order to decide on who to play, where and when? Get a grip son.

 

and then ignors us

[Romey 1878]

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news//tm_headline=mark-lawrenson-why-a-change-would-do-predictable-everton-good%26method=full%26objectid=29908334%26siteid=92534-name_page.html

[Avinalaff]

http://www.liverpool...-name_page.html

 

Baines has been crap for us this year.

 

Fat lot of good Lawro knows. Most creative player my ass. He hasn't been kept quiet, he just can't be arsed.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Avinalaff

[SimonButtle]

Baines has been crap for us this year.

 

Fat lot of good Lawro knows. Most creative player my ass. He hasn't been kept quiet, he just can't be arsed.

Im actually going to agree with you on this lol

[Avinalaff]

Swoon

[Romey 1878]

Baines has been crap for us this year.

 

Fat lot of good Lawro knows. Most creative player my ass. He hasn't been kept quiet, he just can't be arsed.

 

 

I agree that he hasn't been as good as he has been previously, but could that not be (at least in part) because other teams know he's our only creative outlet and are doing a job on him?

[Avinalaff]

I agree that he hasn't been as good as he has been previously, but could that not be (at least in part) because other teams know he's our only creative outlet and are doing a job on him?

 

I guess it could, but I watch him lately and don't see the same enthusiuasm.

 

Maybe it's just his long hair and whiskers making him look lazy lol. We were all a bit surprised to see him get called up a week or so ago, but I feel that was on past performances rather than current (why would Jags have gotten called up if it was current?).

 

I like Lawrenson, but on this occasion I feel he is presuming too much.

[Matt]

I agree that he hasn't been as good as he has been previously, but could that not be (at least in part) because other teams know he's our only creative outlet and are doing a job on him?

theres that and also that hes gets forward so quick that theres noone there to play the ball to, so he ends up crossing to thin air or playing bad passes or running out of space.

[StevO]

i really wouldnt think its him not being arsed.

i agree with all of the other statements though.