Peter H Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Peter are they borrowing money off you?? I sent them a few bob, but they dont have to repay me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Actually id be very happy to donate some money to Everton. Lets say 50 quid. Does Everton have more than 1 000 000 fans in the world? Would everyone donate 50 quid? Would you guys here do it? Could a social media campaign be started? Edited August 19, 2011 by Peter H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 what is all this "the fans have no legal right to know X Y and Z?" Of course we don't, just in the way that the club have no legal right to expect 37,000 of us to turn up and pay £30 a ticket to watch us play. The point is that the club is nothing without it's fans - forget legalities etc etc. Something is going on at our club that stinks, if the fans aren't happy, which clearly the following of the Blue Union would suggest that is the case, then the club have a problem. They can't hide behind whats legal when it suits them. People can vote with their feet, where would that leave them? What is all this nonsense regarding Bill's job description, what he knows, needs to know etc. He bought us off Peter Johnson, put £11m of "his" money into it. Overseen the Fortress fund and ordered samuleson away once the job of ridding Gregg was achieved. He has a damn sight more involvement one way or another with the money matters in this club. If something I has a vast financial interest in, which made the Dr's tell me to get out of in 5 years, I would certainly want to know all the sub lines that account for the £24m spend which is crippling my interest and causing me stress. He runs a theatre company, he can't plead financial ignorance when it suits him. I know little about finance and accounting, but enough to understand that under every expense line, there are sub lines - I would want to see these sub lines. Break that £24m down Bill, you are in the real world now. Some fans and I think its the minority with loud voices. The fact that people arent voting with their feet offers some credibility to that. And youre right, there is no law to say supporters have to go the game and pay a certain amount. But your comparing 2 things that are not comparable. Business documents are protected by law. Supporters following a team is not. Oh, and dismiss job descriptions all you like, it doesnt make them any less true. I agree something doesnt add up but if anyone is to blame it is the CEO and his staff , not the Chairman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) of all the everton fans i speak to in the real world, not this crazy cyber space world, there arent many now who dont want answers and a bit of clarity from the club. even the die hard "leave them to it they know what they are doing" types are starting to question. but im only talking from maybe ten people i speak to on a daily basis here. Oh, and dismiss job descriptions all you like, it doesnt make them any less true. I agree something doesnt add up but if anyone is to blame it is the CEO and his staff , not the Chairman. i see what your saying matt. i dont agree or disagree really, heirarchy level just a bunch of figure heads and job titles. but, and this is a big but, a lot of people credit Bill for Moyes success as he was the guy who hired him and kept him on. at the same time he is the guy who hired the current CEO, the joke of a CEO before that and before him too(Birch i think, was here for about a week). So if the CEO does a bad job Bill must take responsibility for bringing them in and keeping them on. Edited August 19, 2011 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 of all the everton fans i speak to in the real world, not this crazy cyber space world, there arent many now who dont want answers and a bit of clarity from the club. even the die hard "leave them to it they know what they are doing" types are starting to question. but im only talking from maybe ten people i speak to on a daily basis here. i see what your saying matt. i dont agree or disagree really, heirarchy level just a bunch of figure heads and job titles. but, and this is a big but, a lot of people credit Bill for Moyes success as he was the guy who hired him and kept him on. at the same time he is the guy who hired the current CEO, the joke of a CEO before that and before him too(Birch i think, was here for about a week). So if the CEO does a bad job Bill must take responsibility for bringing them in and keeping them on. Ok, i cant argue with that much. Yes he could be criticized for that with just cause, though it wont just have been Bill to make the decision, the rest of the board again. The only defence could be, you never really know until you hire someone, someone who no doubt had a great CV and was recommended by respectable people , how good they will turn out. Every hire is a gamble. Just a shame Elstone and the others havent done a good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 i agree with you there matt. though i know when elstone came in he had said off record that he felt like he was putting out fires all the time, fires that wyness had started. im sure its all running a bit smoother now coz i do like elstone, but i sometimes feel he maybe out of his depth. doesnt have massive business experience on a large scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LexKing Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 IF EFC in at that deep financial levels, that we have to borrow money to keep club running, and spend future incomings to those new debts, its just really really deep shit. If my 50£/60€/75$ would seriously help team and that would be arranged by a trustworthy side, theres no doubt, i would send that amount from the right next paycheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 You see I have a major problem with this bill not being accountable for knowing his finances to the point that he doesn't know the £24m operating costs. If he wants to play daft and pretend he has no understanding of what it is, then why in the early part did he get all sanctimonious and ask the lads if they knew what EBITDA was? He can't have it both ways? Either he has a grasp of finances and should know what £24m is being spent on or he knows nothing, in which case why go spouting about EBITDA when he can't explain a bottom line figure. The level of trust I have in him is minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 I read the same Louis. They contacted solicitors if you believe the press but it went no further. Also, if there was an agreement of no notes and the meeting was secretly recorded, Id question the integrity of the 3 who did it. Another thing that doesnt add up is that transcript is everything from a 3.5 hr meeting? There mustve been some uncomfortable looooooong silences if thats true. If there were a lot of discrepencies then the club would have been straight in there. From what I have seen, they havent discredited the content, only the structure and the fact it has been made public. I honestly cant believe Bill would agree to an interview with fan groups and not expect it to make its way to the masses. Its like Moyes arranging a press conference and expecting them not to put it in the papers. I would also add that from what we have been led to believe, it was only BK also present in the room, so surely that makes it his word against 3 others. Unless they also had a recording somewhere (which I would be surprised if they didnt tbh). i dont fully agree man..as a spokesman as you said before he should know where that money is going to answer the questions people have cos it is a worrying amount..if he can't answer that he should have taken a financial expert with him to answer such questions...when we haven't got money to buy players i think the fans have a right to know where all that 24million is going...i'm sure it's not bent or anythin but it would be nice to get an answer.. I agree I can't understand why the club/BK are surprised the interview has been made public. The whole premise of the meeting was to get some communication so the fans know what the hell is going on at the club. It'd have made very little sense for them to conduct the interview and then not tell any one about it! Finally some sense! What is all this nonsense regarding Bill's job description, what he knows, needs to know etc. He bought us off Peter Johnson, put £11m of "his" money into it. Overseen the Fortress fund and ordered samuleson away once the job of ridding Gregg was achieved. He has a damn sight more involvement one way or another with the money matters in this club. If something I has a vast financial interest in, which made the Dr's tell me to get out of in 5 years, I would certainly want to know all the sub lines that account for the £24m spend which is crippling my interest and causing me stress. He runs a theatre company, he can't plead financial ignorance when it suits him. I know little about finance and accounting, but enough to understand that under every expense line, there are sub lines - I would want to see these sub lines. Break that £24m down Bill, you are in the real world now. Exactly. He simply cant be the Chairman of the club and not know where 1/4 of his losses are being made. Any other chairman/owner of a big business will now exactly where they are losing money. He cant claim to know this and that, be the best seller of the club and not have a frigging clue where the money goes. Dont forget he also writes the foreword for the accounts as well. I know this is more than likely already been drafted for him. He can plead ignorance to some things, but this sure as hell isnt one. Actually id be very happy to donate some money to Everton. Lets say 50 quid. Does Everton have more than 1 000 000 fans in the world? Would everyone donate 50 quid? Would you guys here do it? Could a social media campaign be started? I wouldnt give this lot anything at the moment. Considering he doesnt know where £24mil has gone, what chance will he have with my £50! You see I have a major problem with this bill not being accountable for knowing his finances to the point that he doesn't know the £24m operating costs. If he wants to play daft and pretend he has no understanding of what it is, then why in the early part did he get all sanctimonious and ask the lads if they knew what EBITDA was? He can't have it both ways? Either he has a grasp of finances and should know what £24m is being spent on or he knows nothing, in which case why go spouting about EBITDA when he can't explain a bottom line figure. The level of trust I have in him is minimal. Exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Confirmed - http://www.scribd.co...c-Charge-190811 In plain English, we have we've borrowed against the Premier League Basic Award Fund value (valued at £13.8m in 2010/11 for Premier League clubs and £7.6m for clubs relegated from the Premier League in the previous season), year one of a three year television deal) for the season 2012/13 AND Overseas Broadcasting Money, Title Sponsorship Money, Commercial Contract Money and Radio Contract Money of the 2011/12 season, at a cost of £1.3m from a company called Vibrac Corporation based in the British Virgin Islands. This was taken out on the 5th of August. It's not likely to be for new signings, it is for cashflow. Without it, we'd be in serious trouble. I think this is the "document to the bank which says you can’t stop the football club from trading" that Kenwright spoke of. It's also a better price than the previous arrangements although borrowing from a BVI-based company may be an indication to some that Everton couldn't get another one from Barclays, South African bank Investec or another reputable bank, as Kenwright's comments may have you believe. The mysterious company, Vibrac Corporation, registered in Road Town, Tortola seems to be an entity established by http://www.icazalaw.com based on the postal address. It is also the same address as Robert Earl's BCR Sports which owns 8,146 shares in Everton: Vanterpool Plaza, Wickhams Cay 1, Road Town, Tortola, Virgin Islands (British) It is feasible that Robert Earl has enabled Everton to continue trading, albeit at a cost of £1.3m. Similar deals taken out: December 2010 Borrowed against 2010/11 Central Funds*, Overseas Broadcasting Money, Title Sponsorship Money, Commercial Contract Money and Radio Contract Money Cost of arrangement £1.6m Bank: Barclays Interest: 3% + Barclays base rate "Central funds" is UK Broadcasting Money, Overseas Broadcasting Money, Commercial Contract Money, Radio Contract Money or Title Sponsorship Money. August 2010 Borrowed against 2011/12 Basic Award Fund, 2010/11 Overseas Broadcasting Money*, Title Sponsorship Money*, Commercial Contract Money* and Radio Contract Money* Cost of arrangement £1.6m Bank: Investec *Refinanced in December 2010 loan August 2009 Borrowed against 2009/10 Basic Award Fund and FAPL Merit Payments Fund Cost of arrangement: Unknown Bank: Barclays Interest: 3% + Barclays base rate I may have posted this elsewhere but Everton made £49m from Premier League in 2010/11. This figure was £42m the season before. In other words, despite record turnover, we still can't afford to sign new players because existing funds are soaked up by player wages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Incidentally Companies House have three records of a "Memorandum of satisfaction from lender lodged", dated 3 August 2011, 5 August 2011 and 7 June 2011. The August 2009 and December 2010 mortgages from above are possibly amongst them. I do not have the documents so can't verify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azz Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) A bloke, called Conan (I think was his name), rang into 606 today, he basically told Chappers and Sav what's in your post Louis, he also told them about the AGM situation. Said that as a shareholder they don't get info, they don't get a chance to question the board about what the company is doing etc. Told them it's flawed and failing pretty much. Chappers asked him to email him the details he had, so hopefully he's done that. But I posted this stuff on the 606 Facebook page while they were having the conversation. Hi by the way guys. Edited August 21, 2011 by Azz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I've just listened to it on iPlayer.. I hope I haven't got the wrong end of the stick because this post has been getting a lot attention today. I'll edit the post and send out an email to members if I have. I don't want to be a source of misinformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 I've just listened to it on iPlayer.. I hope I haven't got the wrong end of the stick because this post has been getting a lot attention today. I'll edit the post and send out an email to members if I have. I don't want to be a source of misinformation. Misinformation usually comes from the club Louis - I wouldn't worry mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azz Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Would be interesting if a definitive link between Vibrac & BCR Sports was found just to hear what the club came out with. Wasn't the Investec loan primary used to cover the first Barclays loan and to secure new deals for a few players, Arteta, Rodwell and Baines? Maybe this loan has been done to help with Fellaini's new contract, and obviously the previous loans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everpositive Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Sadly shareholders don't have much in the way of rights. I can tell you this from experience. Me and two other investors were stiffed to the tune of £550k. Company assets sold to "friends" by directors without shareholder knowledge. Refusal to provide accounts. Company put into receivership. All without the shareholders being informed until it's too late. It's scary stuff especially as one was/is an investment banker! Now I'm not suggesting for one second that any football club would behave in such a way I'm merely explaining that shareholders and other stakeholders are rarely considered and have little comeback unless they have deep pockets and are prepared for a long fight. The words "People's Club" will mean nothing if the key stakeholders (shareholders, season ticket holders, creditors) are not kept informed and encouraged to be a part of the process. However I am disappointed that Kenwright's comments were taped and broadcast. Kenwright attended that meeting in good faith and given his experience his naivety is probably excused by the fact that he is a supporter first and foremost and probably left his business head at home on this occasion. This will have further entrenched the Chairman and whoever came up with that idea is probably as deceitful in all other aspects of his life. Going forward we need stability and cohesion not division. Booing the team on Saturday was a disgrace. It's the first game of the season for goodness sake and when in the past 5 years have we started well? Action like that will alienate the players and give their agents a golden opportunity to engineer a move for their "client". Back to the Chairman: I do accept that we may have a Chairman who want to have his cake and eat it. A sale and remain top dog. Sorry Bill, no can do. At the same time we the supporters have to accept that football is a business. A crazy business, but a business, and profit should not be seen a dirty word. Oh to be in the same financial position as Arsenal and Wolves! They say players wages are bringing us down. OK, so if that's proven to be the prime cause of our plight let's change that. I don't begrudge a player 10, 50, 100k or more a week if he can get it and if the club can afford it. Wish it was me.But if paying these wages will bankrupt the Club, then STOP. Put a plan in place that addresses this problem and one that gives lenders some confidence. A Buyer: Any buyer will know that in EFC they'll acquire a BIG club with massive marketing potential both for the Club and THEIR brand and associated businesses. Look at City's owners. Man City is no more than a marketing tool for their other businesses but they are also investing significantly in the community. These are smart people. Is it true they looked at EFC first? Don't depress me... However we are the right Club at the wrong time right now. Who do we have seeking a buyer? We need an experienced team in place to do this confidentially. Do we have one? Are we going down? If we keep thinking we are, then yes. It's true that you get what you think of most of the time. Now is the time for solidarity and positivity. we need to support the players, manager and board. Sure, we can tell them how we feel, but not from the terraces, not in the glare of the world's media, who we know love a negative story. Anyway, must go now. I've been trying to get through to the Samaritans since Saturday but it's been engaged. Wenger must be off by now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalewoodBlue Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 You sure you got the address right? Just looked that up on Google and it where the Govt building is for the Virgin Isles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 The address is on the form on the scribd.com link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azz Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 You sure you got the address right? Just looked that up on Google and it where the Govt building is for the Virgin Isles The building is like a massive office building. Lots of different businesses in there all doing what ever, mainly banking, investment, law firms though. There is a directory online of what's there. I honestly believe it just isn't a very good coincidence... if there is actually a physical BCR Sports office there (which I doubt there is) then I find it hard to believe that Earl happened to be there one day walking through and spotted this company, popped in and sorted out a nice loan for the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Sadly shareholders don't have much in the way of rights. I can tell you this from experience. Me and two other investors were stiffed to the tune of £550k. Company assets sold to "friends" by directors without shareholder knowledge. Refusal to provide accounts. Company put into receivership. All without the shareholders being informed until it's too late. It's scary stuff especially as one was/is an investment banker! Now I'm not suggesting for one second that any football club would behave in such a way I'm merely explaining that shareholders and other stakeholders are rarely considered and have little comeback unless they have deep pockets and are prepared for a long fight. The words "People's Club" will mean nothing if the key stakeholders (shareholders, season ticket holders, creditors) are not kept informed and encouraged to be a part of the process. However I am disappointed that Kenwright's comments were taped and broadcast. Kenwright attended that meeting in good faith and given his experience his naivety is probably excused by the fact that he is a supporter first and foremost and probably left his business head at home on this occasion. This will have further entrenched the Chairman and whoever came up with that idea is probably as deceitful in all other aspects of his life. Going forward we need stability and cohesion not division. Booing the team on Saturday was a disgrace. It's the first game of the season for goodness sake and when in the past 5 years have we started well? Action like that will alienate the players and give their agents a golden opportunity to engineer a move for their "client". Back to the Chairman: I do accept that we may have a Chairman who want to have his cake and eat it. A sale and remain top dog. Sorry Bill, no can do. At the same time we the supporters have to accept that football is a business. A crazy business, but a business, and profit should not be seen a dirty word. Oh to be in the same financial position as Arsenal and Wolves! They say players wages are bringing us down. OK, so if that's proven to be the prime cause of our plight let's change that. I don't begrudge a player 10, 50, 100k or more a week if he can get it and if the club can afford it. Wish it was me.But if paying these wages will bankrupt the Club, then STOP. Put a plan in place that addresses this problem and one that gives lenders some confidence. A Buyer: Any buyer will know that in EFC they'll acquire a BIG club with massive marketing potential both for the Club and THEIR brand and associated businesses. Look at City's owners. Man City is no more than a marketing tool for their other businesses but they are also investing significantly in the community. These are smart people. Is it true they looked at EFC first? Don't depress me... However we are the right Club at the wrong time right now. Who do we have seeking a buyer? We need an experienced team in place to do this confidentially. Do we have one? Are we going down? If we keep thinking we are, then yes. It's true that you get what you think of most of the time. Now is the time for solidarity and positivity. we need to support the players, manager and board. Sure, we can tell them how we feel, but not from the terraces, not in the glare of the world's media, who we know love a negative story. Anyway, must go now. I've been trying to get through to the Samaritans since Saturday but it's been engaged. Wenger must be off by now! Good first post! Although what I would say is that if I had paid however much to sit and watch that crap for 90minutes then I too would have booed. Its not like in a restaurant where you can walk out or refuse to pay the whole lot if you get poor food/service. It may not be productive, but the players and management especially deserved to know they performed way below what is expected of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 The address is on the form on the scribd.com link Scribd isn't a safe site,. I used to get pdf's from there, Loads of viruses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 It's well used by lots of companies. I really wouldn't worry about using it's services at all. And above, great first post, but BU do completely deny recording the interview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagoblue Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 My 2 cents. I used to do a lot of tax work for wealthy clients, many of whom had investments in BVI and Caymans. Not all unusual to have totally unaffiliated organizations with the exact same address, down to the suite number. Very likely just the mailing address of an in country agent that the foreign corp requires to establish itself in BVI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 And above, great first post, but BU do completely deny recording the interview. Unless one of them is able to retain word for word a three and a half hour conversation including expletives then that's just unbelievable. Or maybe they took an hour and ten each? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 My 2 cents. I used to do a lot of tax work for wealthy clients, many of whom had investments in BVI and Caymans. Not all unusual to have totally unaffiliated organizations with the exact same address, down to the suite number. Very likely just the mailing address of an in country agent that the foreign corp requires to establish itself in BVI. The address could be coincidence, I never said otherwise. I've seen one person suggest it's from someone called James Grant who owns the Pro-Active sports agency. I doubt we'll ever find out to be honest. That said, I'd prefer that it was Earl, he'd be more motivated to ensure that his £7m investment doesn't go down the drain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jceverton Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Looked at the scribd document but couldn't see any figures on it - where does the information come from regarding the amount of the charge, interest etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Interest isn't mentioned, see page 5 under "receivables" where it mentions the figure £1,335,489 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Unless one of them is able to retain word for word a three and a half hour conversation including expletives then that's just unbelievable . Or maybe they took an hour and ten each? To be fair mike, it's only maybe a half hour read, so I'd say the snippet that has been released could be an hour tops. But Kelly said on BBC merseyside the other day that the three lads went away with their notes and come back with bits of transcript they could remember word for word and put it all together. As they also said, if anyone has evidence that they recorded it they should bring it forward. Evertons threat of legal action didn't last very long either. For arguments sake, if it was recorded id also find it a bit naive that bill didn't expect it. Should have recorded it himself just incase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 To be fair mike, it's only maybe a half hour read, so I'd say the snippet that has been released could be an hour tops. But Kelly said on BBC merseyside the other day that the three lads went away with their notes and come back with bits of transcript they could remember word for word and put it all together. OK....lets take a small example... “EBITDA is earning before……interest……taxation……depreciation and amortisation, it’s our income. On top of our income we have to pay interest of around £4m. Okay, you know about the bank loan we had under Walter, the securitisation for £30m, it’s now £24.6m, it’s like a mortgage; it goes down slowly. The bank overdraft is £25m, we had Bellefield; we have £25m plus Bellefield. I’m not talking down to you, I’m just asking questions that I didn’t know till I had to learn about accounts. September/August we get the first lot of Sky money, we’re cash rich. When you have sky money and season ticket money there comes a time when, like every club, we’re at the borrowing limit…end of March…so what do I do every year, I sit with my bank…why? Because at the end of the year we’re back down within our facility, okay, this time we’re not…what do you think our squad is valued at for insurance purposes? It’s about £180m but the banks won’t take that as security …you have to battle with your bank, daily for me. When David started I said to him, we had the £30m debt…remember we were going to get £27m from NTL under Walter…we had an overdraft of £5m. I told him “I’ll make you a promise, I’ve got no money but we’ll move heaven and earth to give you £5m a year.” On average we give him £5.6 every year. 9 years that’s £45m that we haven’t got. Add that to the overdraft….you can see what trouble we’re in.” You believe that was taken from notes and bits of conversation they could remember? They remembered, and felt it neccessary to include, Bill saying "Okay" and "why?" did they? With all due respect Ste....bollocks. They called it a transcript and that's exactly what it is....denying it is laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 With all due respect Ste....bollocks. i feel like my minds played a trick on me, Mike you didn't just use a naughty word did you? I refuse to believe it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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