Longest Thread For Drivel (or the Romelu Lukaku thread)

[Bailey]

Why am I even debating this anymore.

That's what I ask myself every time I post in this thread! I know I'm wasting my time.

[Bailey]

As I mentioned in the other thread I would pissed off if I was Rom.

 

I don't know how many of you lads play competitive football but there isn't a week that goes by where I'm not effing and Jeffing at one of the lads on my team and likewise they are giving me the same back. It's competitive sport, you have it out and then you have a pint after the game and everything is fine.

 

This thread is full of mountains made out of molehills.

[c1982]

Hafnia is only replying to people who keep popping in with snide posts to get at him, and your one of the biggest culprits Dunc, thats why the thread has deteriated.

If nobody keeps coming in with posts to rile him the thread might just return to normal.

That's not true though (maybe a couple of occasions - I know Matt has and regretted it too!!!) Haf generally leads the 'conversations' in this thread - he seems to go out of his way to find any piece that can put Lukaku down - god knows what time is spent finding all this but each to their own. He knows what he's doing and he loves it.

 

Lukaku to Haf is what Bart Simpson is to Sideshow Bob.

[StevO]

More of our players need to be giving each other shit if they aren't up to standard.

 

Fergies United players would rip each other a new one if their standards slip, I want that! I don't want nicey nicey players accepting second best.

 

That's all I've got to say from the shit I've just read on the last four pages. Good night lads.

[Hafnia]

Yeah this thread should be called the "please give me attention, my name is Haf" thread.

 

Never seen a bigger cunt in all my life on the Internet.

 

"Warn" me. Who gives a shit. This thread would be better without that absolutely pathetic moron and I'm sure the majority on here would agree.

Interested to understand the need for the insults there aiden?

 

"And I'm sure the majority on here will agree".... just got a bit sick in my mouth there. Pretty weasle-like even by your standards. I get the feeling you like to be part of a gang?

 

Don't try and play the big man. You wanna debate then debate. Don't try and get all heavy. You clearly can't take me to task on the validity of my opinions so you have to have a rant?

 

You may not agree with my opinions - not many do on this forum regarding lukaku but don't fire insults my way - don't type what you wouldn't say to my face.

 

If you want to believe there is only only a handful of people who share my views on lukaku then you try and keep telling yourself that. The fact is I've had his character nailed from day 1 - I've highlighted his flaws for day 1 and neither element has improved much at all.

 

See how easy it is to post without the need to insult? You may learn that one day junior.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Hafnia

[Palfy]

When we play well and Lukaku gets a couple he shouldn't be given all the plaudits, it's a team game and generally everyone has fulfilled their jobs which allows him to fulfil his, and equally when the team play's badly he shouldn't be the only player criticised for a poor game, and to be honest Haf I feel your criticism of Lukaku in games where as a collective nearly all the team have had a bad game is very blinkered, it comes across as he's the only person to be blamed for the loss, although you do make valid points they get lost in what is a biased condemnation of him for all our woes and no one else has apart to play.

[Shukes]

We're Everton fans, we're generally negative.

Reading other threads you see , Mirralas gets slated, Ross is overrated, Jags past it, Robles not good enough.

 

It's not only Lukaku. Lukaku is Hafs best where other players seem to have their own main criticiser..is that a word?

 

Haf just needs to keep his Lukaku criticism in the right thread and then it's fine. Isn't that what threads are for?

[Hafnia]

the point shukes... is that my early and quite direct criticism of lukaku was met with a fair bit of resistance which I tested to the extreme - comparing him to other teams strikers, calling him a flat track bully, questioning the yards he puts in etc.

 

Initially these are met with ridicule with some people completely dismissing my opinions - then at certain points the media publish some stats that back these views up. (Opts stats where he was the laziest outfield player, scores the highest percentage of goals vs bottom 10 teams etc)

 

All this creates is an atmosphere where people are having to fully get behind him to the extreme. The fact that these points seem to be valid has just caused huge irtitation as we seen with Mr "I'm gonna call him a cunt cos I feel like the majority of the forum will support me in it".

 

Top and bottom of it us this- on the surface he looks an impressive striker. When you delve deeper there are as many concerns as there are positives.

 

I actually did think the penny may have dropped with him... nope.

[Romey 1878]

http://www.football365.com/news/the-nonsense-of-the-flat-track-bully-criticism

[EFC-Paul]

I do think Bill is right to an extent, as much as Haf can go on I've at least witnessed him acknowledge when Lukaku has a decent game or run of form but when the shoes on the other foot not many back his opinion

 

The one thing I did notice over the last week or so is that many ex players and pundits talking about his flaws ones that have been spoken about and glossed over on here by some, also many a fan saying they wouldn't want him near their club and a fee of £70m is ridiculous as they see him as a poor frustrating footballer

 

Their words not mine, I do think he's a great goalscorer but his attitude movement and commitment frustrate me tbh

[Romey 1878]

I do think Bill is right to an extent, as much as Haf can go on I've at least witnessed him acknowledge when Lukaku has a decent game or run of form but when the shoes on the other foot not many back his opinion

 

Well this is utter bollocks, Paul. There is not one person that backs Lukaku that has said he is the perfect player, or hasn't acknowledged that he has flaws to his game. We all know he wouldn't be playing for us if that wasn't the case. It's only that people don't think he's a bad as Haf, and others, make him out to be. That his flaws are more palatable because he is an excellent goalscorer, that his flaws are actually lessening as he gets older because that what tends to happen when players get older and learn and improve.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Romey 1878

[Matt]

Yeah this thread should be called the "please give me attention, my name is Haf" thread.

 

Never seen a bigger cunt in all my life on the Internet.

 

"Warn" me. Who gives a shit. This thread would be better without that absolutely pathetic moron and I'm sure the majority on here would agree.

i don't care how frustrating Haf can be, there's no need for this at all.

[EFC-Paul]

 

Well this is utter bollocks, Paul. There is not one person that backs Lukaku that has said he is the perfect player, or hasn't acknowledged that he has flaws to his game. We all know he wouldn't be playing for us if that wasn't the case. It's only that people don't think he's a bad as Haf, and others, make him out to be. That his flaws are more palatable because he is an excellent goalscorer, that his flaws are actually lessening as he gets older because that what tends to happen when players get older and learn and improve.

What's bollocks something I've not even said?! I haven't said people think he's perfect I said people basically defend the lad too much and I agree with Bill that people are quick to jump on Hafs back with shitty retorts but don't give him his due when Lukaku puts in a half arsed shift or acts like a twat publicly

[London Blue]

According to sources in Italy a deal with Chelsea is almost done- how reliable that is I don't know tho?

[Romey 1878]

What's bollocks something I've not even said?! I haven't said people think he's perfect I said people basically defend the lad too much and I agree with Bill that people are quick to jump on Hafs back with shitty retorts but don't give him his due when Lukaku puts in a half arsed shift or acts like a twat publicly

It's bollocks because people do acknowledge that his touch isn't the best, he could and should be better in the air, could work harder than he does at times etc. All things Haf has levelled at him, but you said people don't see them (boot on the other foot as you put it).

[EFC-Paul]

I do think Bill is right to an extent, as much as Haf can go on I've at least witnessed him acknowledge when Lukaku has a decent game or run of form but when the shoes on the other foot not many back his opinion

Not many... Which is true so non of what I said is bollocks imo nor have I said that people don't acknowledge his flaws you've just interpreted it that way

 

People overly defend the lad due to the stigma that Haf has created with his constant posts about him, I'm not defending that as I know how annoying it can be I'm just saying people have unnecessary sly digs and don't like to give the man his due when he's right

[Bill]

You can look at any match day thread and you will see things like" yeeesss Lukaku as scored" and then, he's not running round much tho is he.

Childish remarks just to goad Haf.

Let's get the thread back to normal without all the unnecessary insults.

[Hafnia]

i don't care how frustrating Haf can be, there's no need for this at all.

He's just a kid at the end of the day Matt. Probably thought he could win favour by getting all bolshy with me thinking that he would get backing off the people who disagree with me. Water off a ducks back.

 

If anyone wants to get their point across then the best way is by debating the subject and he clearly lacks the ability to do that well enough.

 

I'm pretty clear in my feelings on the lukaku that:-

 

I took quite an initial dislike to him over his arrogance at the cost of our club.

 

I really do not rate him as a footballer - although as a finisher and as an athlete he is without question an impressive specimen. For me that never has and never will be enough.

 

He is a pure luxury and far too inconsistent in his efforts.

 

 

If I was a big fan of lukaku then someone who is doing what I'm doing would piss me off.... but not half as much as lukaku would be pissing me off! He really does let the fans down who support him and he gives ammunition by the truck load to someone like me.

 

Lukaku like Martinez will be realising.... there is only so far you can go with the players and the fans of this club.

[Matt]

He's just a kid at the end of the day Matt. Probably thought he could win favour by getting all bolshy with me thinking that he would get backing off the people who disagree with me. Water off a ducks back.

 

If anyone wants to get their point across then the best way is by debating the subject and he clearly lacks the ability to do that well enough.

 

I'm pretty clear in my feelings on the lukaku that:-

 

I took quite an initial dislike to him over his arrogance at the cost of our club.

 

I really do not rate him as a footballer - although as a finisher and as an athlete he is without question an impressive specimen. For me that never has and never will be enough.

 

He is a pure luxury and far too inconsistent in his efforts.

 

 

If I was a big fan of lukaku then someone who is doing what I'm doing would piss me off.... but not half as much as lukaku would be pissing me off! He really does let the fans down who support him and he gives ammunition by the truck load to someone like me.

 

Lukaku like Martinez will be realising.... there is only so far you can go with the players and the fans of this club.

A fair post. Let that be the end of the bickering everyone! :shaking fist:

[Paddock]

Fuck off Matt

[Hafnia]

A fair post. Let that be the end of the bickering everyone! :shaking fist:

Not too sure about being called c u next Tuesday by Adrian mole but Its how these kids rock these days. No respect.... have to get moyes to give them a slap.

[Sibdane]

http://www.football365.com/news/the-nonsense-of-the-flat-track-bully-criticism

 

Well-written.

[MikeO]

http://www.football365.com/news/the-nonsense-of-the-flat-track-bully-criticism

 

Getting...

 

503 Service Unavailable

No server is available to handle this request.

 

If anbody can see it could they copy/paste.

[Matt]

It sounds like a back-handed compliment. Originally used for batsmen in cricket who tended to make hay while the sun shone and pitches were flat and thus unhelpful to bowlers, being known as a flat-track bully meant scoring lots of runs. No matter the when and against whom, that hardly strikes as the worst reputation to have.

Yet in football parlance at least, the term has taken on a distinctly negative connotation. Rather than indicate a habit of scoring freely in the easiest circumstances (or against the worst clubs), flat-track bully is now an accusation that a player fails to perform against the best. It is increasingly commonplace, used against Olivier Giroud in 2014/15 and Sergio Aguero in 2015/16. Aguero, Harry Kane, Zlatan Ibrahimovic and, most recently, Romelu Lukaku have had their proficiency questioned this season. Becoming the top scorer in the division is not enough for some.

ADVERTISEMENT

The first thing to note is that flat-track bully is a relatively new addition to footballs lexicon. Wayne Rooney has been forced to deal with regular assertions throughout his England career that he flourished only against lesser nations like Kazakhstan and San Marino, but Gary Lineker scored four of his international goals against a Malaysia Select XI. Of Bobby Charltons 49 England goals, 24% came in four matches England won 8-1, 8-1, 8-0 and 9-0. Charlton was fortunate to survive the accusations of fraudulence that haunt any self-respecting modern footballer.

The second aspect of flat-track bullying is that it can only be carried out by strikers. A defender who keeps clean sheets against the worst clubs in the league but struggles against the elite avoids scrutiny. There is a strange football phenomena whereby defending is treated as a collective effort, with blame and praise shared, but attacking is more of an individual pursuit. It matters not that a midfield may struggle to service a striker against the toughest opponents; the striker will carry the can.

ADVERTISEMENT

The only exception to this rule is Pep Guardiola, that great divider of opinion and accidental firestarter of a dreary war of words. To his detractors, the definition of flat-track bully is widened to include beating both high and low quality opposition and winning trophies as a manager, but doing it with the best club so it doesnt count. Some days it really is difficult to keep up.

Of course, the increase in the terms use correlates with the general shift towards mass coverage of football and the rise of football opinions as a subset of the industry. In a saturated market in which it is often hard to make voices heard or words read, sensational headlines have become a commonplace accepted, even technique. Is Player X a flat-track bully? is far more likely to generate interest and traffic than Player X: Not perfect, but good. This is a place where nobody escapes a label; overrated, underrated, wombling free.

The fact that every elite striker in the Premier League this season has endured such criticism at one time or another is enough to deem the accusation itself as nonsense, but lets prove it so anyway. Judging the six top-scoring strikers in the country on the number of non-penalty goals scored in starts against the top six produces the following results (non-penalty goals is the only fair way of comparing penalty takers against non-penalty takers:

Lukaku 3 non-penalty goals in 9 starts
Ibrahimovic 2 in 5
Aguero 2 in 6
Costa 2 in 8
Defoe 1 in 9
Kane 0 in 7
Ibrahimovic leads the way in a small sample size, but four of the six strikers boast a record of exactly, or close to, a goal every three starts against the top six. So theres our basis for membership of an unpleasant club.

Interestingly, that record is roughly matched across Europe. Before Tuesday evening, Luis Suarez had scored 23 league goals for Barcelona this season, but only two in six starts against La Ligas top six. Lionel Messi had four in seven games against the same opponents, a clear improvement, but Messi is arguably the greatest player of all time. Cristiano Ronaldo has scored once against La Ligas top six, a penalty in defeat against Sevilla. In Germany, poor Robert Lewandowski has scored only one non-penalty goal in seven starts against the top third of the Bundesliga. Are we suffering from a continent-wide epidemic? Is everyone a fraud now?

Well, no. Because if flat-track bullying is a fair charge now, it always has been. In 1994/95 and 1995/96, Alan Shearer won the Golden Boot in consecutive seasons and scored 65 league goals in two years. In 20 starts against top-six sides in those two seasons, Shearer only scored four non-penalty goals. In 1967/68, George Best was the First Division top scorer, and won the Ballon dOr. Only four of Bests 25 league goals came in his ten games against the top six, including penalties. And there you were thinking that he was any good.

And then there is Suarez, Premier League bully extraordinaire. The Uruguayan might have been the top-flights top scorer in 2013/14 with 31 goals, but 39% of those came against the three teams relegated that season. Norwich City and Cardiff City accounted for ten of the 31. It doesnt seem to have done Suarez any harm.

There are exceptions, of course, but even they have caveats. Thierry Henry probably has the best big-game record in the Premier League era, and scored eight NPG in ten starts against top-six clubs during Arsenals Invincibles season of 2003/04. Still, only two in four against second and third. And Liverpool, who finished fourth that season and against whom Henry scored a hat-trick, finished 30 points adrift of Arsenal.

Cristiano Ronaldo scored four non-penalty goals in eight top-six starts in 2007/08, but 18 of his 31 league goals came against teams who finished 12th or lower. Drogba managed six in eight starts in 2009/10, but four of those came in two games against an Arsenal team over whom Drogba had the Indian sign. Thirteen of Drogbas 29 goals came against the bottom six.

The obvious retort slightly damning when it comes 900 words into a piece is Who cares?. Most rational supporters understand that scoring in games against the toughest opponents is harder than against the rest; it is simple logic. Managers increasingly use safety-first tactics in these fixtures, leaving strikers isolated. They enjoy less space, less support and fewer chances.

Yet there is a nasty, snide element to the growing use of flat-track bully, an attempt to demean some of the highest-performing players in the world. While that has always been commonplace within the tribalism of football fandom, the creep into the media is a relatively new development. The obvious conclusion is thus: If you are accusing every elite striker of the same footballing crime, the chances are that none are guilty.

Proof! Real Madrid star Cristiano Ronaldo is a flat-track bully read a headline in The Sun in December 2015, referring to his performance in that calendar year. Ronaldo had scored in the Madrid derby, El Clasico and in both legs of the Champions League semi-final.

Perhaps The Sun were merely romanticising about Dixie Deans 15 goals against the top six during his record-breaking 60-goal league season of 1927/28, but I have my doubts. Next time you read the headline Romelu Lukakus record against top teams stops him being world-class, at least give it a seconds thought.

Daniel Storey

[Newty82]

What a well written piece that is. You can't argue when it seems that a lot of research has gone into it.

 

I said in an earlier post that I was worried about how little Lukaku scores against top sides. But it seems that they all bloody go missing against top sides! Their all frauds! I was way off the mark there then.

 

The key message is simple: Stop loving strikers and start appreciating tough tackling, intercepting midfielders.

 

[Romey 1878]

Someone needs to quote Matt's post .

[Newty82]

Someone needs to quote Matt's post .

It's so huuuuuuuuuuge!!!!

[rubecula]

I like Lukaku but if he wants to leave so badly bench him and have a look at other options. We don't know what we have that could do the job after all, and on the bench Lukaku can always come on for shock and awe if we need him to.

[MikeO]

It sounds like a back-handed compliment. Originally used for batsmen in cricket who tended to make hay while the sun shone and pitches were flat and thus unhelpful to bowlers, being known as a flat-track bully meant scoring lots of runs. No matter the when and against whom, that hardly strikes as the worst reputation to have.

 

Yet in football parlance at least, the term has taken on a distinctly negative connotation. Rather than indicate a habit of scoring freely in the easiest circumstances (or against the worst clubs), flat-track bully is now an accusation that a player fails to perform against the best. It is increasingly commonplace, used against Olivier Giroud in 2014/15 and Sergio Aguero in 2015/16. Aguero, Harry Kane, Zlatan Ibrahimovic and, most recently, Romelu Lukaku have had their proficiency questioned this season. Becoming the top scorer in the division is not enough for some.

 

ADVERTISEMENT

 

The first thing to note is that flat-track bully is a relatively new addition to footballs lexicon. Wayne Rooney has been forced to deal with regular assertions throughout his England career that he flourished only against lesser nations like Kazakhstan and San Marino, but Gary Lineker scored four of his international goals against a Malaysia Select XI. Of Bobby Charltons 49 England goals, 24% came in four matches England won 8-1, 8-1, 8-0 and 9-0. Charlton was fortunate to survive the accusations of fraudulence that haunt any self-respecting modern footballer.

 

The second aspect of flat-track bullying is that it can only be carried out by strikers. A defender who keeps clean sheets against the worst clubs in the league but struggles against the elite avoids scrutiny. There is a strange football phenomena whereby defending is treated as a collective effort, with blame and praise shared, but attacking is more of an individual pursuit. It matters not that a midfield may struggle to service a striker against the toughest opponents; the striker will carry the can.

 

ADVERTISEMENT

 

The only exception to this rule is Pep Guardiola, that great divider of opinion and accidental firestarter of a dreary war of words. To his detractors, the definition of flat-track bully is widened to include beating both high and low quality opposition and winning trophies as a manager, but doing it with the best club so it doesnt count. Some days it really is difficult to keep up.

 

Of course, the increase in the terms use correlates with the general shift towards mass coverage of football and the rise of football opinions as a subset of the industry. In a saturated market in which it is often hard to make voices heard or words read, sensational headlines have become a commonplace accepted, even technique. Is Player X a flat-track bully? is far more likely to generate interest and traffic than Player X: Not perfect, but good. This is a place where nobody escapes a label; overrated, underrated, wombling free.

 

The fact that every elite striker in the Premier League this season has endured such criticism at one time or another is enough to deem the accusation itself as nonsense, but lets prove it so anyway. Judging the six top-scoring strikers in the country on the number of non-penalty goals scored in starts against the top six produces the following results (non-penalty goals is the only fair way of comparing penalty takers against non-penalty takers:

 

Lukaku 3 non-penalty goals in 9 starts

Ibrahimovic 2 in 5

Aguero 2 in 6

Costa 2 in 8

Defoe 1 in 9

Kane 0 in 7

Ibrahimovic leads the way in a small sample size, but four of the six strikers boast a record of exactly, or close to, a goal every three starts against the top six. So theres our basis for membership of an unpleasant club.

 

Interestingly, that record is roughly matched across Europe. Before Tuesday evening, Luis Suarez had scored 23 league goals for Barcelona this season, but only two in six starts against La Ligas top six. Lionel Messi had four in seven games against the same opponents, a clear improvement, but Messi is arguably the greatest player of all time. Cristiano Ronaldo has scored once against La Ligas top six, a penalty in defeat against Sevilla. In Germany, poor Robert Lewandowski has scored only one non-penalty goal in seven starts against the top third of the Bundesliga. Are we suffering from a continent-wide epidemic? Is everyone a fraud now?

 

Well, no. Because if flat-track bullying is a fair charge now, it always has been. In 1994/95 and 1995/96, Alan Shearer won the Golden Boot in consecutive seasons and scored 65 league goals in two years. In 20 starts against top-six sides in those two seasons, Shearer only scored four non-penalty goals. In 1967/68, George Best was the First Division top scorer, and won the Ballon dOr. Only four of Bests 25 league goals came in his ten games against the top six, including penalties. And there you were thinking that he was any good.

 

And then there is Suarez, Premier League bully extraordinaire. The Uruguayan might have been the top-flights top scorer in 2013/14 with 31 goals, but 39% of those came against the three teams relegated that season. Norwich City and Cardiff City accounted for ten of the 31. It doesnt seem to have done Suarez any harm.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but even they have caveats. Thierry Henry probably has the best big-game record in the Premier League era, and scored eight NPG in ten starts against top-six clubs during Arsenals Invincibles season of 2003/04. Still, only two in four against second and third. And Liverpool, who finished fourth that season and against whom Henry scored a hat-trick, finished 30 points adrift of Arsenal.

 

Cristiano Ronaldo scored four non-penalty goals in eight top-six starts in 2007/08, but 18 of his 31 league goals came against teams who finished 12th or lower. Drogba managed six in eight starts in 2009/10, but four of those came in two games against an Arsenal team over whom Drogba had the Indian sign. Thirteen of Drogbas 29 goals came against the bottom six.

 

The obvious retort slightly damning when it comes 900 words into a piece is Who cares?. Most rational supporters understand that scoring in games against the toughest opponents is harder than against the rest; it is simple logic. Managers increasingly use safety-first tactics in these fixtures, leaving strikers isolated. They enjoy less space, less support and fewer chances.

 

Yet there is a nasty, snide element to the growing use of flat-track bully, an attempt to demean some of the highest-performing players in the world. While that has always been commonplace within the tribalism of football fandom, the creep into the media is a relatively new development. The obvious conclusion is thus: If you are accusing every elite striker of the same footballing crime, the chances are that none are guilty.

 

Proof! Real Madrid star Cristiano Ronaldo is a flat-track bully read a headline in The Sun in December 2015, referring to his performance in that calendar year. Ronaldo had scored in the Madrid derby, El Clasico and in both legs of the Champions League semi-final.

 

Perhaps The Sun were merely romanticising about Dixie Deans 15 goals against the top six during his record-breaking 60-goal league season of 1927/28, but I have my doubts. Next time you read the headline Romelu Lukakus record against top teams stops him being world-class, at least give it a seconds thought.

 

Daniel Storey

 

Thank-you Matt .

 

Well researched enlightening piece, should probably make some people rethink their opinions.

 

But it won't.

[Hafnia]

 

Thank-you Matt .

 

Well researched enlightening piece, should probably make some people rethink their opinions.

 

But it won't.

It can't make me rethink my opinion... my opinion is that against the better teams he is found wanting as he doesn't put the effort in. Hence the numerous posts about drogba.

 

His lack of goals against them? I've stated on here repeated times that his 2 best games I've seen have been where he scored one goal against Liverpool but dominated their back 4. And secondly a game against man city where he didn't score but destroyed mangala.