Longest Thread For Drivel (or the Romelu Lukaku thread)

[Matt]

Are those stats fact?

Surely they can't be.....because Rom doesn't get any service playing for Everton. We're lucky to have him don't you know.

 

Not like that lucky bugger Kane at Spurs.... he must have a 30% conversion rate as Spurs create so so many chances!

 

So those stats can't be real.

From previous seasons it was almost certainly true, this season (especially since Christmas) the whole team has improved which is reflected in his increase in goals (15 of the 24 were scored after Christmas).

 

I'd still maintain that our midfield still aren't close enough to him in my opinion

[Shukes]

 

Shukes, is that all you could take from my post?

 

"Nice guy" is probably the wrong term, lets say he was more of a 'Teachers Pet'. Did what he was told, when he was told and always gave 100%. You're right, he was a snide on the pitch. Still didn't score many though.

Haha no mate. Just a snippet I noticed that's all.

 

Didn't comment on the rest as I mostly agree mate.

[Romey 1878]

Is this even real life anymore?

[Shukes]

From previous seasons it was almost certainly true, this season (especially since Christmas) the whole team has improved which is reflected in his increase in goals (15 of the 24 were scored after Christmas).

 

I'd still maintain that our midfield still aren't close enough to him in my opinion

That's my point matt. It's the whole team responsible for results and goals. I also agree with you that the whole team are also responsible for when Rom doesn't score.

 

And we still don't create two thirds the chances that Martinez did. While we have to sacrifice a few of those for a more solid system....we can close that gap and help our forwards....whoever they are.... more.

[Shukes]

Is this even real life anymore?

Nope...it's 25th century football.

 

You just look at the two teams on paper and check stats. Then you can mathematically decide which team wins without them even playing.

[Romey 1878]

Nope...it's 25th century football.

 

You just look at the two teams on paper and check stats. Then you can mathematically decide which team wins without them even playing.

 

As long as Peter Capaldi isn't the Doctor any more then I'm in. I think.

[Chach]

Nope...it's 25th century football.

 

You just look at the two teams on paper and check stats. Then you can mathematically decide which team wins without them even playing.

 

[Matt]

That's my point matt. It's the whole team responsible for results and goals. I also agree with you that the whole team are also responsible for when Rom doesn't score.

 

And we still don't create two thirds the chances that Martinez did. While we have to sacrifice a few of those for a more solid system....we can close that gap and help our forwards....whoever they are.... more.

Can't argue with that.

[markjazzbassist]

Is this even real life anymore?

 

or is this just fantasy?

[Hafnia]

 

I don't think that actually happens, I think you like to think it does.

 

On a seperate note, there are times where Rom will get highlighted for a poor performance over 10 other players on the field. The odd player (Joel) might get a couple of posts about how well or shite he's done but generally, the other players and threads get nowhere near the attention that this one does and therefore avoid the majority of criticism (which should be spread where necessary IMO).

 

Unfortunately, Matt's post about team support is valid in those examples, although Rom isn't and shouldn't be excluded from criticism when it's due. To blame Lukaku for the whole team's performance is ridiculous but your critique(s) of him in those big games is understandable and evidence supports that. He hasn't performed in those games, there's no getting away from that but playing devil's advocate for a moment (and talking hypothetically) would he have played better if the players behind him had? Who knows?

 

Using Souness to support your views on a player, the guy is a bellend and a biased nob-rot (i'll give you the Carragher one because I believe he's one of the best/soundest pundits out there (unfortunately)).

 

I agree that Rom's attitude at times has been questionable, he's certainly responsible for what he says in the media (whether he's defended or not) and the way he conducts himself on the field (some games) is beyond a joke. However, there are other times that Lukaku has quite literally, pulled us out the shit. Without his goal scoring record, we wouldn't be anywhere near the level we are now.

 

Can we get players with better attitudes? Yes we can but will they score as many or bring as much to the table? I don't know.

 

We've said for years that Everton have been too "nice". We've gone for players who are "nice guys", they give all the effort but don't get the results (Naismith for example). If Everton truly want to compete, we need a ruthless edge. Lukaku's goal tally, unfortunately for you Haf, currently outweighs his "attitude". I like you, would love for every single player who steps out in that jersey to have the same attitude as Labone or Ball but they're like rocking horse shit in modern football. Football is a business nowadays and we're looking for top performers, who excel in their field. I'll take one or two 'cunts' in the squad, who perform at a ridiculously high level (and get us the results), if the rest of the team balance it out with workrate and energy.

 

We have a bit of a cunt in Lukaku but that cunt is our cunt, and he's scoring goals. I wouldn't mind a cunt of a Goalkeeper and defender too if they're some of the best in world in their position and available? Secondly, you know what, they may even help fire the lads up to actually compete against the top teams?

 

I fucking hate Harry Kane but have to give him credit where it's due, he's not the joke of a footballer I used to watch for the England youth sides. He's improved his all round game and doesn't just "smack it" like he used to, fall over or run around like a headless chicken (as much). He's a dick but you'd have him in your team. Dele Alli, absolute reprobate but most teams would take him. Lallana is an absolute snide but again, on recent performances, most teams would take him too.

 

There aren't many "nice" players out there that perform at the highest level and when they do, they're already at one of the CL teams or too loyal to move.

 

Michael Keane is probably the best example of the type of player I 'think' you'd like and is a realistic target for us. He comes across humble, fully committed, he's already a top player and has the potential to go even further. Goretzka would be another, we'll probably lose out on him but he's someone i've wanted at Everton for a long long time and true 'captain' material - issue is, 2 good seasons with us (if it happened) and he'd be off to another top club for sure. After that, i'm struggling mate.

 

Lukaku has many flaws. Is he overly criticized? All the time and more than he should in some cases. Is he defended beyond blame, yeah, sometimes even I can't read some of the posts jumping in to defend him.

 

But mark my words, when Lukaku leaves we WILL struggle for goals. With the squad we have now, we don't have anyone to score anywhere near enough to truely compete in Europe (Vardy is REALLY struggling in Europe). Will we move on? Yeah, of course we will. I have enough faith in Koeman and Walsh (for the time being) to believe they will find a suitable replacement (or 2) for Lukaku.

 

Just be careful what you wish for though because it won't be just you that Lukaku's potential departure that could bite us in the ass. This could be the catalyst for a few other departures (Ross, Mirallas) who feel like we might not match the ambition we say we have.

 

BEFORE ANYONE ACCUSES OF BAITING AN INDIVIDUAL - Read the post again. It's as balanced as any post in this thread and quite clearly NOT baiting.

Great post. Well considered- you touch on a lot of things with balance there that is seldom seen on this thread.

 

When he goes I don't believe we will get a striker who scores as many goals as him but I don't think we will suffer as a team if we get the right type of striker.

 

That right type of striker is attainable I believe. The first and foremost attribute will be a Suarez like will to win... with the technical and physical attributes befitting a top half premier league side.

 

If we get that I foresee the likes of Barkley really pushing on.

 

The difference between Barkley and ali for me is that Barkley doesn't have the partnership with the striker than ali enjoys with Kane. Kane is far more able to interact and make better runs for ali.

[Hafnia]

But you were pointing out that it's Roms job (not in my opinion, but hey ho) to close the likes of Luis down to prevent attacks after I pointed out the entire team was asleep in that 5-0 drubbing, but no mention of the 10 other players behind him. That's what I'm confused by.

 

I won't argue on the definition as we've got very different interpretations of the phrase, with both arguments have merits and flaws. But the idea of top-strikers turning up confuses me. Pretty sure you'll talk about "helping out the team" rather than concentrating on goals, but for me goals are what the striker is there for and most important (as that's how games are won). Plus, it's actually fact based, so easier to debate. I'm not dismissing the importance of workrate, it's just extremely difficult to have a fact based discussion.

 

Examples, using Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd, Spurs, Liverpool & Arsenal as "big teams" (not Leicester because they've been shit most of the season):

 

Costa (who had his head turned and being a bigger prick than usual after January) - 17 goals in 30 games, 5 assists

1 vs Liverpool

1 vs Man City

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. Incidentally, runs on average covers 9km, 3rd lowest at Chelsea with only Terry and Courtois moving less.

 

Ibra - 17 goals in 28 games, 5 assists

1 vs Man City

1 vs Liverpool

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. 9km covered on average per game, 4th lowest at United with only De Gea, Jones and Bailly covering less.

 

Aguero - 17 goals in 26 games, no assists. 10km covered on average per game, can't find the team stats

1 vs Liverpool

1 vs Chelsea

1 vs Arsenal

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above.

 

Kane - 20 goals in 24 games, 5 assists

1 vs Arsenal

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. 10.7km covered on average per game. Very impressive.

 

Sanchez - 19 goals in 31 games, 10 assists

1 vs Chelsea

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. Runs on average covers 9.5km, 5th lowest at Arsenal

 

Rom - 24 goals in 32 games, 6 assists

1 vs Man City away (and what a goal)

1 vs Man City home

1 vs Spurs

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. Just under 9km covered per game, can't find a comparison against the rest of the team but I'm sure he'll be down near the bottom too.

 

I found the article for Lukaku and Kane was a very interesting and accurate read too:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/mar/04/romelu-lukaku-harry-kane-everton-tottenham-hotspur

 

I understand why you don't see him as player of the season, I think he was 3rd for me after Gana and Coleman on the OS vote. But he has improved massively, which is what I prefer to celebrate and compared to other "top strikers" his records are equal to if not better than everyone I mentioned above except Kane. Regardless, the fact we're talking about him in the same company as those mentioned should be something to enjoy.

I keep having to repeat this but I judge his performance aside of goals....

 

Goals if you want to look at in isolation do paint a grim picture against top sides when it comes to Rom.

 

But I'm not looking at goals.... I'm looking at the fact that when you see the likes of Costa, ibra, Suarez, kane etc play for their sides against better teams they aren't spending 90 minutes throwing their arms up in the air or ambling across the back 4 as they play it out just hoping that one of them will fall over or something.

 

There is a visible difference in his body language and effort when he knows chances are going to be at a premium. Stick him in against Sunderland and he's like a hyena against a 2 legged lion - full of swagger, effort and purpose.

[Matt]

I keep having to repeat this but I judge his performance aside of goals....

 

Goals if you want to look at in isolation do paint a grim picture against top sides when it comes to Rom.

 

But I'm not looking at goals.... I'm looking at the fact that when you see the likes of Costa, ibra, Suarez, kane etc play for their sides against better teams they aren't spending 90 minutes throwing their arms up in the air or ambling across the back 4 as they play it out just hoping that one of them will fall over or something.

 

There is a visible difference in his body language and effort when he knows chances are going to be at a premium. Stick him in against Sunderland and he's like a hyena against a 2 legged lion - full of swagger, effort and purpose.

I know you do, which is why I acknowledged our difference of opinions

 

It's also why I put the average Km covered, as I think that's a decent indicator of work rate - at least one that can be factually backed up. Also, body language is open to interpretation. Anyway, I thought it was very interesting that nearly all of the top strikers cover the least distance in their teams.

[Bill]

My brain is hurting, as from today this thread is on my ignore list.

[Matt]

Strange, Bill. Today probably has the best posts of the entire thread

[MikeO]

Strange, Bill. Today probably has the best posts of the entire thread

 

He can't hear you .

[Paddock]

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

FUCKING AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH

[Shukes]

Pad.... don't click the Lukaku thread haha.

[Aidan]

Didn't want to quote it as it was that long but great post Matt, a lot of effort gone into that and shows a great comparison.

[Palfy]

Didn't want to quote it as it was that long but great post Matt, a lot of effort gone into that and shows a great comparison.

I agree very interesting, we have got serious player in our hands when it comes to Lukaku, hope we can convince him to stay.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

But you were pointing out that it's Roms job (not in my opinion, but hey ho) to close the likes of Luis down to prevent attacks after I pointed out the entire team was asleep in that 5-0 drubbing, but no mention of the 10 other players behind him. That's what I'm confused by.

 

I won't argue on the definition as we've got very different interpretations of the phrase, with both arguments have merits and flaws. But the idea of top-strikers turning up confuses me. Pretty sure you'll talk about "helping out the team" rather than concentrating on goals, but for me goals are what the striker is there for and most important (as that's how games are won). Plus, it's actually fact based, so easier to debate. I'm not dismissing the importance of workrate, it's just extremely difficult to have a fact based discussion.

 

Examples, using Chelsea, Man City, Man Utd, Spurs, Liverpool & Arsenal as "big teams" (not Leicester because they've been shit most of the season):

 

Costa (who had his head turned and being a bigger prick than usual after January) - 17 goals in 30 games, 5 assists

1 vs Liverpool

1 vs Man City

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. Incidentally, runs on average covers 9km, 3rd lowest at Chelsea with only Terry and Courtois moving less.

 

Ibra - 17 goals in 28 games, 5 assists

1 vs Man City

1 vs Liverpool

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. 9km covered on average per game, 4th lowest at United with only De Gea, Jones and Bailly covering less.

 

Aguero - 17 goals in 26 games, no assists. 10km covered on average per game, can't find the team stats

1 vs Liverpool

1 vs Chelsea

1 vs Arsenal

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above.

 

Kane - 20 goals in 24 games, 5 assists

1 vs Arsenal

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. 10.7km covered on average per game. Very impressive.

 

Sanchez - 19 goals in 31 games, 10 assists

1 vs Chelsea

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. Runs on average covers 9.5km, 5th lowest at Arsenal

 

Rom - 24 goals in 32 games, 6 assists

1 vs Man City away (and what a goal)

1 vs Man City home

1 vs Spurs

 

All the rest against other teams not mentioned above. Just under 9km covered per game, can't find a comparison against the rest of the team but I'm sure he'll be down near the bottom too.

 

I found the article for Lukaku and Kane was a very interesting and accurate read too:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/mar/04/romelu-lukaku-harry-kane-everton-tottenham-hotspur

 

I understand why you don't see him as player of the season, I think he was 3rd for me after Gana and Coleman on the OS vote. But he has improved massively, which is what I prefer to celebrate and compared to other "top strikers" his records are equal to if not better than everyone I mentioned above except Kane. Regardless, the fact we're talking about him in the same company as those mentioned should be something to enjoy.

Excellent post , however stats are irrelevant unless they back up Haf's opinion [emoji23][emoji23]

 

 

[Hafnia]

Do you think if I ran a search on how many times I have stated that it's not about his goals vs top 6 but his performance in doing a job for the team that I would get at least double figures? I do.

 

I could actually pull on the larger sample size of data that isn't just from this season which shows an alarming disparity of goals when looking at the top 6 vs a player like kane.

 

I mean let's be honest.... if you were going to book a holiday in November to some island in the med you wouldn't go off 9 days average weather for the month would you? Not when there is 30 days worth in the archives...

 

The reality is that lukaku does have a poor record against the top 6 when you compare him to someone similar in Kane.... but as I have stated on numerous times its not that..... it's his performance.

 

Example.... he has played in a derby game and was exceptional - he actually did score but it wouldn't have mattered as he performed great and did a great job in keeping their defence back and occupied. Yet he scored against spurs the other week when the centre half slipped but he was shite....

[Bailey]

Its Goals to shots "on target". It doesn't say how many shots he's had or chances that have been created. He's got a 64% shot on target ratio. Kane has 65%, mane 63%, firminho 65%, hazard 61%, king 61%, deeney 58%.

 

He has had 11 more attempts on goal than Kane which equates to 7 more shots on target which equates to 4 more goals.

 

To say he's not had service takes the piss... after all it's the number one excuse you use when he doesn't score so you are saying that his Goals are all down to him and his individual flair? Bollocks

Is this Kane comparison taking into account the games he has missed? I presume it also includes penalties.

 

Considering the goals he has scored, I would be fairly confident that Lukaku has consistently had the least chances. Against Liverpool (both games), 1 shot. Against Spurs, 2 shots (1 he created and scored) Against Bournemouth (he scored 4), 5 shots. Utd, no shots. Soton away, 1 shot.

 

I have picked some of our poorer games because I wanted to highlight how we aren't a team that is creating him chance after chance. I accept that Rom could do more and then maybe could help create an extra chance in some games but I just want to show you that this is not a side which is set up for him to score goals, he hasn't had fantastic service all season and in fact these stats suggest that when the team is playing poorly, Rom is too. Shock.

[Hafnia]

Is this Kane comparison taking into account the games he has missed? I presume it also includes penalties.

 

Considering the goals he has scored, I would be fairly confident that Lukaku has consistently had the least chances. Against Liverpool (both games), 1 shot. Against Spurs, 2 shots (1 he created and scored) Against Bournemouth (he scored 4), 5 shots. Utd, no shots. Soton away, 1 shot.

 

I have picked some of our poorer games because I wanted to highlight how we aren't a team that is creating him chance after chance. I accept that Rom could do more and then maybe could help create an extra chance in some games but I just want to show you that this is not a side which is set up for him to score goals, he hasn't had fantastic service all season and in fact these stats suggest that when the team is playing poorly, Rom is too. Shock.

I think you are missing the point.... look at number of goals to shots. That is all you need to know. You were talking before about goals vs shots on target which is an odd stat. Someone could take 1000 shots and blow them all over the bar but of the 15 they get on target score 15 goals. It essentially gets rid of an element of performance that doesn't look as good as the other.

 

As soon as I seen the stat i knew something was amiss because Rom has a tendency to miss the target high with shots further than 18 yards. If he gets them down more there is a chance of a corner, rebound etc. His long range shooting could be better with the power he has in his left foot. Ironically something he could learn from Kane.

 

Kane has played 800 minutes less (nigh on 9 games) which is why he has a comparable number of shots to Rom. But the comparison is in percentages - so its irrelevant.

 

I'm sorry but the stats on number of shots against the top sides is indicative of how he plays against them. Most strikers will only get a couple of sniffs in these games - he's not alone. The strikers will be doing a job to occupy the back 4 to create space between the lines to take pressure off the rest of the side.

 

Again I find myself repeating the fact that my judgement of him in these games isn't about goals.... it's about him not engaging their defenders. Winning battles, fighting for scraps.

 

In the derby he let their defence have the easiest of afternoons- didn't jump for headers, didn't even go in for a shoulder to shoulder (as highlighted by osman on radio 5)... this culminated in him getting roasted by Baines and Williams against man United..... ever seen a striker get that before?

Edited April 21, 2017 by Hafnia

[Romey 1878]

Well, our manager seems to think Rom is more than just a goalscorer and is improving all the time. That'll do me.

[Peter H]

2000 - Kevin Campbell - 10

2001 - Big Dunc - 8

2002 - Campbell - 12

2003 - Dunc and Rooney - 9

2004 - Cahill - 12

2005 - Beattie - 11

2006 - Johnson - 12

2007 - Yak - 21

2008 - Cahill and Fellaini - 9

2009 - Saha - 15

2010 - Beckford and Saha - 10

2011 - Jelavic - 11

2012 - Fellaini - 12

2013 - Lukaku - 16

2014 - Lukaku - 20

2015 - Lukaku - 25

2016 (current season) - Lukaku - is it 25 so far?

 

He is the best striker we have had for a very, very long time. I have said it many times, I dont care what else he does on that pitch as long as he scores goals. And that lad can score goals. He is still only 23 years old and look at that goal tally.

Everton want 100 mil to release him in the summer and it would not surprise me if someone comes in for him at that price. Thats how much he is worth.

[Hafnia]

2000 - Kevin Campbell - 10

2001 - Big Dunc - 8

2002 - Campbell - 12

2003 - Dunc and Rooney - 9

2004 - Cahill - 12

2005 - Beattie - 11

2006 - Johnson - 12

2007 - Yak - 21

2008 - Cahill and Fellaini - 9

2009 - Saha - 15

2010 - Beckford and Saha - 10

2011 - Jelavic - 11

2012 - Fellaini - 12

2013 - Lukaku - 16

2014 - Lukaku - 20

2015 - Lukaku - 25

2016 (current season) - Lukaku - is it 25 so far?

 

He is the best striker we have had for a very, very long time. I have said it many times, I dont care what else he does on that pitch as long as he scores goals. And that lad can score goals. He is still only 23 years old and look at that goal tally.

 

Everton want 100 mil to release him in the summer and it would not surprise me if someone comes in for him at that price. Thats how much he is worth.

No chance will anyone cough up that monry for him £100m?! I hope so i really do.

[c1982]

No chance will anyone cough up that monry for him £100m?! I hope so i really do.

By saying £100m then bidding needs to start at, at least £80m. There aren't many player exchanges these days but I think, if any team are really serious in their interest, that will tip the balance e.g £60m + Batsuyi (I'll need to learn how to spell that) then performance related bonuses.

 

Chelsea have great young players who could more than help soften the blow of losing Lukaku - players they'd be reluctant to lose but aren't likely to be given enough opportunities there e.g Batsuyi, Traore, Loftus-Cheek, Abraham, Solanke (although it seems he's leaving for a training fee anyway), Chalobah (who has looked very assured when given a chance), Zouma. None will replace Lukaku and his goals (that's what we'd need a sizeable fee for) but all are likely to become very valuable assets in the near future.

[Hafnia]

Was just chatting to a Chelsea fan in work - he's a contractor but watches most games. He doesn't want lukaku at the suggested price- he has a soft spot for Everton from the 80's team.

 

His concern is that lukaku never had the stomach to fight for his place when he was at Chelsea. Back then he was demanding he play rather than compete for the spot with the likes of torres etc. His concern is that he will sulk when he is rotated or subbed... that he will be expected to put in a shift to operate in their front line.

 

He wants griezman, lacazette or dybala. He said the young kid on loan who we are linked with is an outstanding talent.

[Peter H]

No chance will anyone cough up that monry for him £100m?! I hope so i really do.

 

I would not be surprised if Man Utd (replace Ibra), Chelsea (replace Costa) and Man City came in for him. Add to that any one or two of the following: Paris SG, Dortmund, BM, A top 4 side in Spain and the fee for Lukaku will easely break the 100 mil.

[EFC-Paul]

City have Gabriel Jesus amongst others who looks every bit a world class player in the making

 

Chelsea or United will come in for him imo possibly one or two foreign sides, we'll be handsomely rewarded but a £100m no chance £70/80m and that's pushing it tbh

Edited April 21, 2017 by EFC-Paul