Avinalaff

I strongly disagree and sentence you to 10 minutes in the naughty cupboard. I'm still behind Moyes 100% and I believe most fans are inclined to feel the same as a majority rather than a minority. If fans think there is a better manager out there I'd sure like to know what his name is, and how many years he would be interested in running the club at the top end of the table for with zero funding.

Matt, you need to have a word mate.

I have to agree with PeteO. I find it unlikely that other fans watch us every week, and for someone to say we're known for drab football is naive and uneducated. It wasn't long ago we were compared to the great footballing sides in the world, and played Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool, 'and' City off the park with wonderful football. I don't mind folk offering opinions, but when the opinions are poppycock it's hard to let them pass without challenge, and to accuse us of playing 'drab' football is poppycock.

Then it's not so much good business, as good riddance then in your book? I don't think he was given a good enough opportunity to find himself. He scores goals, and was pacey. We could have been more patient for me. Next season he could have been worth a lot more.

I wonder will they accept this one?

I'm yet to be convinced it was good business to sell a quality player so cheaply just because he was free. I think he could have gone on to be quite a signing.

It needs to be said that City were pretty shite themselves on Saturday, and hardly entertaining considering the value of the team. We might be 'dull' as you call it, but the team ran rings around your superstars only a few games ago, and played you off the park. You were lucky not to concede 4 or 5 that day. For a team who played as bad as City did for the past 20 years it's a bit rich calling 'any one' dull, now that you have paid a load of superstars to come and play for you, and taken much of the talent away from other teams. As much as your posts come across as sensible, it's fair to say there is the odd little undercurrent of piss taking and patronization going on too that hasn't gone unnoticed.

Great news Mark.

And you would have played that line up against a world class side like City?

There are 30+ football players earning millions every year and you want skint fans to cough up?

Not the worst player in the world. Has a good strike on him too.

I thought our best spell was the start of the match, right up until the ref decided to award Barry a freekick for fouling Cahill, and it went down hill from then on. I don't like that ref. Many times I've felt frustrated by him. Isn't he the same compassionless tw@t that sent Heitinga off in the WC final?

I think fans study football as much as players do. The main difference is the coaching you receive as players offers certain insights you don't get as a fan. Take a look at stats. I only get an assist, if you put the ball in the net. My cross can be immaculate every time, but I rely on 'you' to score for it to be recognised.

Who would you play and where Haf?

Can't you get in on RAWK? Maybe we could make it interesting, and answer their questions on behalf of them?

Mark Lawrenson is a decent pundit. They're all boring as hell though. It's like snooker and John Virgo and Steve Davis commentating. It makes me want to take it to the bridge. I want to hear Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooal !!!!

4-4-2 is far less attacking and much more defensive than 4-5-1. I used to think it was the other way around until it was properly explained to me by a guy who knew a lot more about formations than I did. Our strikers not scoring isn't down to Moyes' system. Yakubu scored plenty under Moyes, and Saha was scoring well until he was injured. I think it's a mixture of the quality of movement, the quality of pass, and the quality of the finish. Our strikers are lazy and slow. The only striker we've had who ran his arse off for some time was Andy Johnson. Beckford had decent pace but no service. We can't expect silk purses out of average players all the time. Look at how United break, and the movement. The same with Chelsea. Then look at how much those players cost, and how much ours did. I'd love to have Nani on one wing, Young on the other, and Rooney in the middle, but I don't think we have a cat in hells chance. Heck, I'd love Giggs even now, and he's almost retired.

Yes, things are tight. I think Vellios must be given a chance now. He looks to have a bit about him. Selling Beckford really pissed me off, and I'm not sure why he was sold. I thought he could have been a great player for us if only Moyes had given him a full time job. My only complaint with Moyes is that we have no continuity of formation, and certain players seem to get picked regardless of form. For me, Jags needs to be dropped. He is a liability at the moment. Put Heitinga in for a while.

I don't like 'any' of the 80's team commentating, be it Gray, Reid, Sharp, Nevin, or even Snodin. I think footballers should leave commentating to entertainers who might know nothing about the game, but at least make it exciting. Can you imagine Lee Mack doing the commentary for the Manchester derby?

Fellaini scored 10 goals for us to be fair when he was used in an attacking role, as did Cahill. We don't have the money to have perfect players for each position. This is where Moyes has had to improvise. Everton were playing 'wonderful' football only a season ago, so not sure your analysis has too much foundation Haf. We don't have Pienaar, Arteta, nor do we have Donovan who was around at the time we were playing well and losing Lescott didn't exactly help. Even Gosling and Yakubu have gone. Even when our football was superb, we had no strikers who could score, so Moyes can't win. Had we been able to get Drenthe, and Beckford, at the same time we had Pienaar we would have almost cracked it, but it's almost impossible for us to have all the players all of the time, especially as our squad is so small, and our injuries so frequent.

I actually said fans 'shouldn't' be allowed to make the decisions, but that's another debate. What you've just written is another debate too, as whether it's best to move from Goodison is a totally different conversation than whether the ground represents the club or not, as I'm sure you will agree. Relocating or redeveloping or even rebuilding? I think there is a thread or two on this very subject already, but I'd be happy for a ground share, if it benefited Everton, and I'd be happy with building a new ground on the same plot. Basically, I'd be happy with what is best for the club regardless of what that was. I don't live in Liverpool, so it is different for me than it might be for other fans. Also my active supporting days are coming to an end, so what happens next will effect the existing, and future supporters more than it will effect me, so I certainly wouldn't get involved too much in that side of things. I've had my time as they say. I think if they do relocate, it will certainly be the start of a new era, and if the relocation was at the hands of new owners, with new staff and players to follow, that would be something I'd find hard to have any feelings for. In fact it would probably be the time I find another pass time. At the end of the day, it's just a game, and Everton, and everybody else are just football clubs. We all get a little too sentimental at times.

I think you're fair minded. I accept some of your views will be different than mine on things, but I couldn't accuse you of being a tit like some other City fans from what you've wrote here so far on the forum. I trust in Moyes, which means I have to trust him to do the right thing by the club 100%. This includes using his judgement to make decisions, that I might not agree with also. It's just as big a decision to play defensively as it is to play attacking. Only after the event can we judge if something worked or not on many things, but Moyes doesn't have that leisure. He makes his decision based on the best possible average, and it's his decision making which has kept Everton at the top end of the table for the last decade. I think it's sour grapes that fans can't credit the guy based on the amount of times he gets it right, rather than the few times he gets it wrong. I'm sure if Moyes had a billion to spend he'd give City as many trophies as the next manager.

I wonder how big our wage bill is each year. The first place is to tell football players that they are no longer going to earn what they earn. Let's face it, the biggest problem is the price and payment of players. Sack every player, and hold auditions. I wonder how much the standard would fall.

I think the stadium is a big part of the club to be fair mate. Our whole history give or take a few years across the park is in Goodison park. Fans come and go, players, managers, owners come and go, but Goodison Park is still there. All my memories of Everton Football Club, other than tv and radio, are at Goodison Park. The route to the ground, the bus fare, the train fare, the drive, the styles, the terraces, the stairs, the view of the pitch, the toilets, the crowd, the atmosphere; it's all Goodison Park. Manchester City fans were led by an Arab Pied Piper in exactly the same way as if I was to open a bigger and better forum, and ask all our members to come and post there on the premise that I'd call it Toffeetalk. It's a terrible example, but it's an easy one to understand. You all think you are supporting Man City. You're not. Much of Manchester City died when they bulldozed Maine Road, and so did the culture in the area, and the small businesses etc etc. You have nothing left that resembles Man City, other than a name, and memories, and that is the same as calling the Isle of Man England and going to live there, or another forum Toffeetalk. All your memories of Manchester City football club exist in Maine Road. What you have now is a new club, and a new adventure. An evolution if you like. You might want to call it another chapter, but is it really? You don't agree? Let me ask you this ............. Go find an 80 year old man who no longer goes to the match, and ask him to describe his memories of Manchester City football club. Then tell him that it's all gone now, but he can still find them at the Etihad stadium. I wonder what that man will say to you in reply. The owners or who ever built Etihad didn't need the history of the club. They didn't need the old stadium. They just needed 40,000 fans to join them. What if they had simply built a 3rd great club in Manchester, and called it Manchester Athletic? Would you have become an Athletic supporter? What if they hadn't wanted to call the new club Manchester City? What if they wanted to call you Etihad town? The fact is that they could have done that. Just built a new stadium, with new owners, new players, new identity, and won the league playing to an empty stadium every other week. They don't need the revenue of the fans, as it's clear they are spending so much money, that they can 'never' earn it back through football and merchandising. They might have actually gotten a 'new' set of 40,000 fans. Who knows, as there are enough folk in Manchester and surrounding areas. They could have let them in for free. Well, they did all that, but called it Manchester City, then bulldozed what was left of the 'real' Manchester City, and all your fans gladly jumped ship for promises of riches. I'm being hard, but my words are legitimate if you think about it logically. Fans are 'not' Everton FC. They are witnesses to it. Everton FC is what it is, and much of that is not physical. It's the combination of lots of things, but it's not the fans alone, and it's probably something different to every one of us. If I die today, Everton FC will get by just fine, and so will all the other fans. Only if 'all' the fans died today, be it match goers, or armchair fans, would it have an impact on the club, but the club would still be there, even if much of the revenue had gone, and any body passing would still be able to point and say "There's Everton Football Club". Some of my fondest memories of Everton have been as a child, listening to the radio, where there are no fans, no ground, just hope. Fans are for sharing the experience with, and the memories with, and also the anticipations with, but to say that fans are the club, not the ground? No, I can't accept that. The day Goodison Park is bulldozed, or stands empty, will be the day part of my heart lies empty as an Everton fan, and you can guarantee that I won't be alone. Yes, I'll embrace the new ground, and the new 'chapter' but it won't be Everton any more, especially if there is no Moyes, no Kenwright, and a bunch of new players. I'll still have my memories though as I do now. If you can tell me that it isn't like that for you, then I'll believe you, but I'll question it all the same.