Avinalaff

Romey, I think we both understand it, as we're both fans. My point to Matt was that we have to forget history, and anything else, if we are to be able to contemplate our current situation. Up and down the forums, fans can't accept it, because they feel we should be above all this. Things are what they are. Wimbledon were once a great club too. What has happened to many is called a 'fall from grace'. Some fans can't deal with that. Others can, and have no choice, unless they want to be depressed and look for something to blame. I'd rather take it on the chin, say "Oh well", and see where we go from here.

Matt. My mind is made up about you, so cut the crap. Nobody likes a smart arse mate, especially one that tries to wriggle out of everything. It's ugly. There is no reason to converse with me further, as I won't see your posts.

I agree as to why it exists Romey. I simply state that we must put our pride aside. When the shit hits the fan, it doesn't take a detour to miss the mighty.

Don't ignore it - think about it's meaning. Also, the amount of times you mock people, then pretend you weren't trying to be smart is comical.

I asked if the statement was true. It wasn't my opinion. My opinion is that Moyes spotted a talent in Baines, and bought him. During his tenure with Everton he improved, gained confidence, and met expectation. I find it difficult when folk suggest Moyes is responsible if he performs below par, just as much as I would find it difficult if Moyes were to take all the credit for his successes. Moyes picks him, and Moyes' game plan relies heavily on all 11 players playing 100%. When players let him down, Moyes takes the flack, but Moyes' destiny is not always in his own hands. That was my point, that Matt was unable to comprehend.

It's a romantic notion Romey. If we take our heads out of our arses we then realise that no matter how many titles we have, we are still in this situation. Then, we can deal with things easier. Thinking we are high and mighty means we have further to fall.

Matt. You look for things to be picky about (remember the pedantry comments?). It's the same when you pull somebody on their spelling. Why bother. Is it important if I write 'Right back' by mistake? It shows that you are petty, and that's why we don't get on. Stop taking everything literally, and be a bit more resourceful in your train of thought, and you will discover life is so much more rewarding.

That's because you have feelings of entitlement. Please tell me how we are so special? I'll then show you Manchester United or Liverpool. Argue the case and I'll then show you Real Madrid or Barcelona, and so on. We have a better history than many others, but that means little when we are skint, and struggling. You remind me of the posh people on the Titanic that thought they should have a life boat to themselves.

I have relatives in the Isle of Man. Have you lived there all your life?

Baines was a bog standard right back when he joined us, and became an International because of Moyes' performance. When Baines' plays bad, it's because Moyes managed badly, and failed to inspire him. Is that true, or is it only the bits that suit you? Players have a duty to perform. Are they now only able to perform if the manager helps them psychologically?

So it was down to Moyes' great management skill that Baines won player of the year then Matt?

It's a GOT members post, not a memo from Sir Alex Ferguson. Since when does anybody on GOT write anything that doesn't involve getting as many 'positive' reps as possible. I might give radiofriendlyuntitshifter a neg just for ass licking chico in the first paragraph, and watch as all hell let's loose as GOT goes into 'someone gave me a neg' meltdown.

Baines gets my disapproval because he isn't performing. You could argue that Moyes isn't performing too, (I can't avoid that counter) but the two scenarios are very different. Baines' contribution adds to Moyes' performance, not the other way around. It is much more in the players hands as to how they approach a game, where as Moyes can but field those he trusts to perform. Saha is the funny one, but he has little competition, and the younger lads are not ready according to many, including Moyes, who trains them daily. If we had investment, Moyes would have no excuse, but we haven't invested in the squad for a long time now, and what is worse, is that we have lost our best playmakers to rivals. We've had this conversation many times though, and it has failed to yield common ground, so I'm not sure it will be of benefit to keep trying.

There is plenty to be positive about if you stop this apparent delusion of entitlement. We are just another club. Not special. We are only a football club. Many clubs don't exist any more, and you will see this if you look at the list of clubs that have won silverware over the years. Others are no longer in the Premiership, and no longer in the league at all. There are lots of clubs worse off than us. We are one of the fortunate few. We might not be a Man Utd, but we are still one of the best clubs in the entire league, despite our current situation. When things can't get worse, it means things can only get better. Would you divorce your wife if she wasn't able to perform like she did a few years ago? Where is the loyalty? Get behind the team, and start enjoying just being there. Many are not. Anything else is a bonus.

Haf, I'm going to be honest with you. You spoil my enjoyment of the forum with every discussion you partake in, as your negativity has a clear agenda, and it's like nails going down a black board. Being constructive is great, but being constantly at the root of every ounce of negativity on this forum is something completely different. You're completely over the top, and the epitome of everything I hate about football fans. I actually think you're intelligent, and I would be lying if I said I particularly disliked you, but at the same time I'd like to grab you by the throat and shake you until every last drop of negativity has fallen, and that can't be a good foundation for any conversation. In my time on here, I've seen your moaning influence many others, and they too are now fully fledged whiners of the highest order, and I really can't be arsed trying to add any positivity any more. On an Everton forum, in a thread dedicated towards Moyes, there is barely a single nice comment towards him, and that for me shows that this forum is not the forum many of you like to think, but a sess pit of agony and torture, as you take solace and comfort in each others whinging. Life must be terrible for you guys. Thank God I can log off at any time, because if I was ever unfortunate enough to be chained by your side, I would tear my own flesh to escape you, and your pitiful badly done to-ness. THAT - is why I've been argumentative lately. Nothing more. If Moyes has any sense, he will leave Everton, and let folks like you drown in your own pity. Don't worry though, because my post will no doubt be deleted, as Toffeetalk likes to pretend all is wonderful. The only way they might achieve this is if they were to dump you on Mars, and even then, I;'d like to take a obne way ticket to Pluto just to be rid of your posts. They suck.

Is it because I'm sizzling?

Maybe I will.

I didn't say that at all. Don't put words into peoples mouth.

At least the telly might last a bit longer not having things thrown at it. Steve will be a proper grouch now that it's ended though. Best stay out of his way lol.

That's good news if true.

I've read enough to not believe you Haf. This is a small forum, and there is much negativity, so it's no surprise that you have some support, but isn't it time you took each game as it comes, and stop forecasting gloom? Every day is a new day. The old Moyes thread saw the start of all these arguments. Let's hope the new Moyes thread can see an end to them.

Not everybody forgets just what a fantastic manager Moyes has been since he joined us in 2002. He has worked tirelessly for our club, and given the fans a new sense of expectancy and pride. With very little help from the board, he has taken us back to the top end of the table, given us Wembley experience, and European excitement. His transfer dealings have been remarkable, finding complete bargains, and turning many of them into International stars, coveted by the top clubs, and his faith in bringing young players through is there for all to see. We are currently going through our hardest period in many years, as a business, and many fans have been at a low, with all the politics surrounding us, but it is time to stop using Moyes as an outlet for your frustrations - he simply doesn't deserve it. If anything, blame the game itself, and it's financial burden. So he makes a few decisions that fans don't expect. The same 'out of the box' thinking was what made us a great team. You can't expect the guy to get things right all the time, nor can you expect to take the teams best players away and not have a blip. Give the man time, and he will turn it round. I think there is still another chapter unwritten for our club, and I don't think it will be a negative one. It's time to get back behind the man, and start being Evertonians again. Be strong Davey. Some of us still believe in you mate.

Good for you mate. It's time folk stopped feeling sorry for themselves and realise just what a fantastic manager he is.

I think you're right Steve, though I'd still take him on loan for 3 months, 34 or not, even if it was to give other players an insight into the guys way of thinking.

His 'anti Moyes' comments, was what I was referring to.