holystove

Yes, for starting him ahead of Origi .

They do but in sight of goal most suffer from hero-complex and think they can Payet the ball into the top corner.

Probably not a surprise that I agree with this one hundred percent. To have someone who voted out say this, warms my heart . - I'd like to come back on what I said about the message of the Brexit only resonating with extremist parties on the continent. It's true that only the leaders of these parties celebrated a Brexit but a vote on whether your country stays in the EU doesn't happen along party lines. Le Pen is the leader of the only political party in France that is against the EU, she is also a fascist. But that doesn't mean that in France only fascists are against the EU. The anti-establishment argument is really resonating with a lot of people right now. People want to say No, indifferent of the question asked if they see the establishment backing yes. Reform is needed in the EU, but first and foremost politicians should stress, as Romey said, the positives of EU membership. You shouldn't be in the EU because scaremongerers make you afraid your country can't survive outside of it (ofcourse it can), you should be in the EU because you want to. - This article by Timothy Gordon Ash really hits the nail on the head (imo): http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/lifelong-english-european-the-biggest-defeat-of-my-political-life-timothy-garton-ash-brexit

I thought he played a decent first half but nothing special, second half he was crap. One thing I noticed (other than his well known other flaws) is that he's a bit of a slow thinker. The number of times Hazard and De Bruyne threw up their arms in desperation because Lukaku couldn't keep up (needing two touches when it only took one, turning too slowly, not passing or passing to slow or fast, ..). Instead of increasing his value he's showing he can't keep up with really good players. What worries me is that this year's Everton were the best team possible for him, next years Everton should be too good, and definitely the 2017-2018 Everton team should be out of his league.

Credit to them for playing with a positive attitude and not parking the bus. Fear wales will be different if belgiums past two games against them are anything to go by.

I've never seen hazard play any better than tonight.

Good post Newty. About the Future: *the following is purely speculation and personal opinion* I think Matt called it earlier in this thread. There are a million things that need to be (re-)negotiated, and that can't happen within the timespan of two years. Switzerland and the EU barely managed in 20 years of time. The EU will give the UK the Norway-deal : access to the single market, in exchange for a fee, and without a seat at the table. During the following years after that, probably some stuff can be re-negotiated without the two years time limit. Unless the Brexit sets into effect the exit of other member states, and the whole thing falls apart. But as the exit scenario doesn't seem to get a lot of traction, apart from extremist parties, on the continent I think that the much less likely option. Longer term future: personal hope: the EU asserts itself more and proves how and why it is still the greatest political project ever undertaken and a definite positive in todays world, the UK will want to join again at some point. Given the massive number of young people that wanted to remain, the future generations of UK citizens might be open to it.

I'll green you in return ! Read my reply to Newty and you'll understand where I stand.; no need to be so defensive. I tend to (try to) keep emotion out of these things, but I guess that's easier not being a UK citizen and not really directly affected.

The thread was going in the direction of which parties on the continent are influenced by the idea of an exit out of EU, and so far, they're all extreme parties. Doesn't mean anyone on here who voted leave is by definition an extremist. The UK is very unique in that they were never fully in the EU, were always suspicious of it, have a huge anti-EU media, used to be a big empire so nostalgia might have played some part, ... there are so many reasons to vote leave, next to the immigration/racist/xenophobe arguments. On the continent, the first (more or less reasonable) set of arguments apply to a much lesser extent. Not that France/Germany/Italy/Netherlands etc don't have an impressive history as nation-states, but they are some of the founding fathers of the EU so they identify with it much more. I guess their economies are much more open as well, given their geographical location (on the continent).

I agree that in your example Labour and the Green Party should pick up those votes. But it's tough for mainstream parties to offer an alternative that resonates with the public if there's also a populist party that is offering a really simple solution to every problem you might have (it's the immigrants, it's the EU, it's radical Islam, it's the gays, ..).

Don't think I was twisting your words. You said you hoped your Brexit influenced other countries to also choose to quit the EU. I replied that such a message is only being picked up by the far-right-wing parties, who are uniting behind quitting the EU. Also don't see how each country reverting back unto itself has anything to do with uniting people. I think it's a bad evolution that people feel the need to say fuck you to (mainstream) political parties; it pushes them to extremists such as UKIP, FN, AfD, PVV, Vlaams Belang on the right, and to the communists on the left. Trump is also riding the fuck-you establishment wave, with terms like "take your country back", and "make your country great again".

Interesting demographics Under 50 in - over 50 out Employed in - unemployed/retired out Educated in - no higher education out Just heard it on the news. Looking for source

Might be important to keep in mind that the only ones from the continent congratulating you are Le Pen, Wilders, Lega Nord, Orban.. Not one mainstream party has said that a Brexit is a good thing. It's OK to be proud of your victory, but patting yourself on the back for having united the facsists of Europe is taking it a step to far for me.

True. the Flemish blame the walloon, and the walloon blame everyone who is not a member of the socialist party for everything that goes wrong in the world .. So no need for a EU scapegoat .

If one of the founding principles of your organisation is "an ever closer union" it was exactly meant to be more than just a singe market. There are a lot of problems facing the world an Europe that, I believe, EU is much better equipped of handling (immigration, global warming, terrorism, international finance, ..) than every country individually. Britain always had one foot outside the door; I don't think there are a lot of implications for other countries leaving. Although I understand Farage highlighting certain far-right parties as it is in his best intrest to not have to face a bloc.

I dont think its correct to imply other countries would vote to exit.

First thing you wrote is true. Elites depress wages & economic mobility, saddle people with debt. Then get surprised as demagogues win by giving people convenient scapegoats. Second thing you wrote is, according to every economist who is not in the "Economists for Brexit" camp, wrong.

Hugh Laurie Retweeted Big Sexy Jeb! Lund ‏@Mobute 59m59 minutes ago Big Sexy Jeb! Lund Retweeted Katharine Viner We're not often classier in America, but we usually give it at least 12 hours before doing a 180 on our worst lies. Big Sexy Jeb! Lund added, Katharine Viner @KathVinerFarage: it was a mistake for Vote Leave to say it could save £350m/week by leaving the EU and give the £ to the NHS https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-result-live-counting-leave-remain-brain-in-europe?page=with:block-576cc69ae4b030d83eb4a143&CMP=share_btn_tw#block-576cc69ae4b030d83eb4a143 … rob delaney Retweeted Mark P ‏@gomark 1h1 hour ago Mark P Retweeted Anushka Asthana I hate it when I accidentally laser-cut a huge mistake onto the side of a fucking 20-foot bus Mark P added, Anushka Asthana @GuardianAnushkaNigel Farage says no we won't be able to spend £350m to the NHS... That was a mistake for Vote Leave to say that, he says...

I'm sorry Mike . My affinity for all (UK) Toffeetalk members was the only reason I would have been pleased with a Remain vote; It sucks to be on the losing side of a near 50-50 vote, especially if you see Farage on the other side. Silver lining: he's out of a job now, right?

I agree with Steve (thank you for not using the word bureaucrat in your post ). 99% of legislation from the EU still has to do with the Common Market though, so all those regulations and rules you feel hold Britain back, will still apply if you want to remain in the Common Market. Don't think Farage would go for that. The idea of a two-speed Europe has existed for a long time, where you'd have a core Europe with deeper integration and then other countries who are not (yet) ready for such integration (because they are too weak economically, or they have a strong cultural/historical adversity towards unity between European states, or ...). Theoretically this Core Europe would then have a "centripetal effect", a magnetic attraction for the rest of Europe. Geert Wilders (the Dutch anti-Islam facsist) has already congratulated the UK and calls for a vote in the Netherlands; so has the Vlaams Belang (Flemish very right wing party); .. I think it's a bit early to have referenda on membership in all these countries (although I the dutch and belgian would be firmly in). First we need to see how the UK-exit is handled. Think Cameron should resign now (also if Remain had won); he just split his country in two.

Steve, I do get it and it's why I've stated from the beginning that I hope Leave wins. I also genuinely respect people who vote Leave because they have zero affinity with the European project (with the premise that they are informed of course). By the way, even among continentals I am in the big minority with my conviction that it would be in every European citizen's best interest for there to be a "united states" of Europe. My reply to your post wasn't about all of that. I replied to your statement that 1/ bureaucrats decide policy 2/ that it would ever be feasible for Russia to get a better trade deal than the UK. That just shows such a level of "misunderstanding" (stronger terms may apply) that it pains me that such convictions are held by your family and friends. Anyway, go Blues..

Such negativity is exactly what's wrong with how the public in the UK views the EU. First of all, "bureaucrats" will have zero say over what trade deals will be put in place after a Brexit. Politicians decide that. The UK is just as much ran by bureaucrats as the EU... Do you genuinely believe that Russia will get a better deal than Britain? Even with all the sanctions because of the annexation of Crimea? That's just absurd, Steve. If a Brexit happens, the Belgian GDP will drop by an estimated 0.5% tot 1% so it is also in other member states' intrest to negotiate good deals. If you remain, you will be part of the EU. Therefor if you refer to the EU it should be as "we". You won't be forced to accept anything that you didn't have a say in. Seems to me you can't really blame good will going out of the window for some other Europeans, when it was never there in the first place for the Brits (granted this is to a large degree your media's fault).

Fair enough. I'm not an economist so I can't offer a counter argument myself. I can only refer to the article I already posted: Assessment Splitting correlation from causation is difficult. All countries’ growth slowed after the postwar surge petered out. But, given the dramatic improvement in Britain’s position, it is nearly impossible to argue that the EU stood in the way of Britain pulling up its socks. In the most detailed assessment to date, professor Nick Crafts of Warwick university, Britain’s leading economic historian, estimates that the EU directly raised UK prosperity by about 10 per cent, largely due to increased competition and better access to the single European market.

Seeing how most think the economy is the most important part of the debate: https://spiderfinance.com/2016/06/21/brexit-in-seven-charts-the-economic-impact/

Always wanted to respond to this but forgot. For the full list that debunks or clarifies every single item on your list, go to this official website : http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/ The EC has responded to over 400 myths published by the British media. These range from the absurd (fishing boats will be forced to carry condoms) to the ridiculous (zippers on trousers will be banned). Some are seemingly the result of wilful misunderstandigs. A story published by the Sun in 1999 claimed that the queen would suddenly have to make her own tea because of new EU rules. Not only is this inaccurate, but the laws that this referred to were enacted by Britain itself in 1993. Another artikel in the Daily Star in 2004 reckoned that the EU was going to limit the speed of children's playground roundabouts. This voluntary guidline was not even proposed by the EU at all, but rather by a different organisation with the word "Europe" in its name. There is no other country in the EU where the media publishes these amount of fabricated stories. I think this shows there has always been a certain hostility and suspicion towards the EU from the beginning. If Remain wins, maybe the biggest reform needed is on the reporting on the EU in Britain.