holystove

I'll take this one johnh. Quite to the contrary, Palfy. I think it's been made quite clear that in reality the EU has held the UK back for 45 years. If the UK managed to become the 5th/6th largest economy while under the rule of a malevolent dictatorial regime, there's no telling how big its economy would have been without the EU. Once freed, you will see, it won't take long before the UK is number 1 (or maybe 2, America First and all that).

Interesting article about that in Financial Times today. May is wrong in pushing for "Global Britain" as Leave-voters don't want Empire 2.0, they want Nation 1.0. https://www.ft.com/content/a9c45baa-1dc6-11e7-b7d3-163f5a7f229c …

so are Leicester allowed to win the champions league now ☺

2-0 now edit: yikes, way late

The reason I only mentioned the economic aspect is because this current discussion started with Chach doubting your statement the EU needs UK more economically than the other way around. And because there's not much to say if full control at the level of the nation-state is the most important issue. If that's the case Brexit is the only way to go, regardless of anything else. I do wonder how this concept of taking back control, will survive when the UK has to compromise on the international stage (concluding FTA's etc). I still believe British intrests were served best when the UK could use the EU to push its agenda. As the UK government stated in the Brexit white-paper: "Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that". However, if as you say, this sovereignty issue at the level of the nation-state is the reason why most people voted Leave, UK citizens should be wary of May abusing the Brexit-mandate to turn the UK into a de-regulated economy. 52% of a population includes people from all walks of life, not just "right-wingers".

As your post makes clear: 1) the EU does not hold its members back from doing (international) deals in the areas where the member states retain competence 2) the UK already does deals with the dictatorial Saudi regime. Coupled with other policy decisions like the intention to lower environmental standards to attract more investment, shows there is a real chance Brexit will be an economic success as the UK is willing to do whatever it takes. I do hope there have been studies done by the Tory government that concluded increased trade with non-EU countries due to lowering environmental, moral, social standards will offset having to trade with the EU under WTO rules.

There better be a long line of countries willing to sign a trade deal on the day the UK leaves the EU, as the UK will loose preferential access to some 60 markets that the EU has trade deals with. On the first day of Brexit, the UK will have 0 trade deals. Of course this is all short term stuff. In the long term noone can predict if economically, Brexit was a smart move. To me it's not really about that though. Indeed, a main task of the EU is concluding trade agreements and integrating the Single Market, but it's also about furthering the values of liberal democracy throughout the world. It's why for example in the same week Liam Fox is meeting Duterte about future trade agreements with The Phillipines, the EU releases a statement it will freeze all trade-talks with The Phillipines because of Dutertes' record on human rights. So if the UK gets trade deals with Saudi Arabia, Duterte, the Gulf states (naming countries that have recently gotten visits from the May and Fox and that don't have a trade deal with the EU), the UK might fare better economically, but I will not be particularly impressed.

tweet by Alexander Clarkson‏ @APHClarkson "Vladimir Putin now joins a long list of investors shafted by Donald Trump"

I voted Davies. was surprised he got only one vote (mine). thought he played with a lot of positive energy.

I'm more frightened of Pence becoming president than keeping Trump, tbh. Is there no way the election can be voided if proven the Russians interfered? a new Democrat and republican could then be put forth? wishful thinking ☺

I get where you are coming from as what you describe is the general view of the Express, Breitbart, etc.. but the problem is that the view from this side of the Channel in the popular press is exactly the same, except write UK where you wrote EU. Lets hope the negotiators at the table are more level headed.

It obviously is only a Spain issue which they feel so strongly about they demand the EU mention it in brexit negotiations. The EU, being consensus driven, likely couldnt get Spains OK on the response to May unless Gibraltar was included in it. Another example of how the EU is driven my its member countries. Also wasnt Gibraltar 90% remain? One could say this reveals how this Tory government thinks.

Intent doesn't matter.. players should know that if they go into a challenge a certain way, the other player could be seriously hurt, regardless of intention.

You have tried to make this point numerous times now.. it's not that difficult to understand. Getting rid of Juncker: 1/EU parliamentary elections 2019, put an X for another party than the EPP (party of which Juncker is a member), if enough people do the same, he is out. OR 2/as the UK already voted against Juncker: convince enough other member states to block Juncker Getting rid of Tusk: Elect a different government leader than the one who supports Tusk, if enough other countries do it, he's out.

I don't think he was acting; was a really bad challenge.. if you add this foul to the one he made earlier on Can, Ross is very very lucky to still be on the pitch.

2nd liverpool goal looking more likely than equaliser..

should have been a yellow .. lucky

James Bond (Daniel Craig) in attendance. Is he a red?

I thought your post was a good analysis of the current situation from the Leave-perspective. You are imo very correct in stating that a big problem is the British never felt like EU citizens. I highlighted the cool heads part because it's funny how different this is perceived by the remaining member states. Threatening to withhold security information, making lists of foreign workers, etc.. newspapers are reporting the UK is turning back to 40's nationalism. The fact that May had to sent a clarification of her original article 50 letter on the security issue, was widely covered as indicative of how disjointed the UK is in its approach. The Gibraltar thing is really weird for an outsider like me but it does show a little of what union membership means. Noone in Finland, Belgium, Denmark, etc cares one bit who rules Gibraltar. It used to be an issue between two member states, UK and Spain. Now the remaining member states see it as an issue of concern for one of its members, and therefor of concern to all of them. Also, if your argument to leave is that you don't want part of any political union, it's hard to be surprised to see the EU approach Gibraltar from a political point of view. I also agree that if another major player leaves the EU, it's game over. Just like if a major player in the UK leaves the UK, the UK is over . I see neither of those things happening. For all the negative spin that has been put on brexit, it has unified the remaining 27 to an extend never seen before. Let's hope for the UK sake, the UK can also come together during the upcoming negotiations.

you could use elements of any system to describe it as undemocratic or dictatorial .. but even though what you describe would seem undemocratic, it would obviously make zero sense to call the UK a dictatorship. Theresa May has said a succesful EU is necessary for a succesful UK post brexit. I agree with her, and also about the opposite, that the EU will benefit if the UK is succesful post brexit. She has also said she wants a deep and special relationship with the EU. She obviously wouldn't say this if she didn't believe the core values of the EU align with the UK, democracy first among it. The only ones campaigning for EU failure are UKIP and other rightwing idiots. Frankly, the fact that for some it's not enough the UK should succeed, but also the EU should fail, is beyond pathetic.

Tusk was selected for his position of President of the European Council by the members of the European Council, which he represents. Tusk represents the EU member governments. He was indeed not elected by the people of Europe, but why would people not represented by the position have to vote for it? Juncker is president of the Commission, and was selected from the party that won the EU elections in 2014. Each EU member state government then put forth their candidate for commissioner. Juncker can't do anything without the consent of the EU parliament (and/or the Council which represents the member states). Anyway, we've been over this before and if it didn't stick then, it probably won't now either. I just think it's important to keep in mind that even though you for some reason feel the EU is undemocratic, there is a strong factual basis for people to believe otherwise.

But... you literally said "the only change will be having the chance to hold lawmakers accountable. Britain will not float off into outerspace because we voted to not be a political pawn for unelected and unremovable people." meaning inside the EU, you can't hold lawmakers accountable and you are a political pawn for unelected and unremovable people.. You literally said that is the only change from inside vs outside the EU. regardless of the fact that what you wrote is factually incorrect; I was wondering if you realise the implication of your statement is that everyone who is for international cooperation EU-style are people that don't want accountable lawmakers and want to be ruled by unelected and removable people. Given how ridiculous that sounds, I thought it was a way to show how wrong your analysis is.

In my experience, people who say that often haven't made up their mind and are desperate to be convinced.

So you believe people who are pro-EU are all people who prefer to be political pawns for unelected and unremovable people, and who don't want the ability to hold lawmakers accountable?

I think Aaron was being sarcastic.